Benefits of RAW

[wiltonyeh]

Hi,

My wife and I are planning to get two frenchies so we've been doing a lot of research. We are new to this board and have been trying to learn more about the different diets out there.

I've been reading up on Raw and premium kibble. While it seems that everyone who feeds raw strongly recommends it, are there any scientific studies that support this? From a common sense perspective, Raw seems the way to go but I came across an article that seems to suggest that there isn't much of a benefit from feeding Raw. I've included a link to the report below.

http://www.mountaindogfood.com/RawHelp/Raw_Food_Study.pdf

Any thoughts on this? I understand the best diet for each dog varies so I'm just trying to do get a better understanding of all the options out there.

Out of the dry kibble available, I'm leaning towards Fromm's Four Star and for raw, I'm thinking about going with Bravo. I'm also thinking about giving the puppiues NuVet Plus to supplement their diet in small doses as puppies and increase to the recommended dosage once they are a year old. However, I'm having difficulties deciding whether to put my puppies on a raw diet or kibble diet.

Thanks,
Wilton

[franp]

First, I would like to know who Mountaindog enterprises is? Do they sell kibble?

The major opponents of raw IMO always seem to be people that are somehow related to commercial dog food.

There have not been any MAJOR studies ;again IMO because the large corporations do not stand to make any money from raw food YET..

My experience;my dog, like Roosje's is not gassy any more.And the best is that she eats.She tolerates raw wonderfully.As do most of the dogs that I come in contact with
I am a member of Frenchbulldogrescue;every dog that we get with health problems is switched to raw. And every dog responds.Every dog with skin or gastrointestinal issues has come to us on a commercial diet.It appears that this is either the cause or an exacerbating fact.

Congratulations of your choice of breed.Please be VERY careful as to where you get your pups.There is allot of information on this site as to how to tell if the person you are getting your dogs from is reputable
Please feel free to ask questions.

The suppliment you mentioned?Why give it? I like to keep things simple. Adding things to a pups' diet can cause problems.

fran

[gmacleod]

While it seems that everyone who feeds raw strongly recommends it, are there any scientific studies that support this?
Not to my knowledge. But there aren't any that suggest kibble is better either.

Coming from the perspective of having grown up feeding raw food to pets, I tend to have a slightly different perspective to some people - in that I view kibble diets as a bit of a fad LOL

Seriously, kibble was invented not a very long time ago - as a means of using up waste products from the human food industry. And in it's early days, I think there is no doubt that this type of diet represented extremely poor nutrition for dogs. Kibble was almost completely grains and flour, for a start. Since dogs are carnivore/omnivores, that's a little bit like trying to feed fish to a cow. Not recommended - since cows don't have a digestive system designed to cope with meat products. Well, it's actually a similar problem with dogs - nature has spent the past 50 million years or so designing dogs to consume raw meat and bones (possibly some fruit and vegetable matter too, but how much is debatable). Sooo - canines have an extremely short digestive tract designed for the fast processing of this type of food. It is substantially shorter than those of humans (true omnivores) and a fraction of the length of herbivores.

While kibble has come a long way in recent years (since the consumer discovered what actually went into it and started to demand better), it is still primarily grain-based. Even in top quality kibbles, the meat and bone content is only around 20-25% (in some parts of Europe, labelling laws actually do require that percentages be disclosed - they're not in NA). So the question that needs to be asked is how well can our dogs cope with being fed a species-inappropriate diet that is mostly grain? Well, the answer is that that depends on the food, and it depends on the dog. Some dogs suffer severe gastrointestinal and digestive problems, some extreme allergies, and some seem to do just fine. In almost all cases though, if the owner tries a natural diet, they report improvements in the health and vitality of their dog...

But, as already stated, kibble has come a long way in recent years. I note that a great many premium foods now refuse to use cheap nasty grains such as corn and wheat, they use human-grade meat products instead of waste by-products and 4-D animals (google that one, if you've never heard of it before), they're also using greater quantities of meat and bone in their foods. Some even include fruits and vegetables :) And of course, there are even a few foods around that no longer use grains at all (Innova EVO is one).

But, with all that said, I've never seen one shred of evidence that suggests that feeding a kibble diet might be better for my dog than a natural raw diet (I don't buy the pre-made raw either - I feed what I buy from my butcher and *know* is deemed fit for human consumption). Anecdotal evidence (from a fairly wide range of people) would suggest the opposite - dogs do far better on a natural diet than a grain-based one. So I'm unlikely to consider switching any time soon ;) And however far kibble has come, I still feel that grains are an inappropriate food to feed to a carnivore - so while some kibble in their diet isn't going to hurt them (any more than a little McDonald's is going to hurt me), I don't think it is an appropriate food to make up the majority diet of a canid.

And, finally, I just have a suspicious mind. Almost all dog food manufacturers of reasonable size are owned by the giants of the human food and cosmetics industries (Mars, Proctor&Gamble, Nestle, Colgate-Palmolive et al). They own pet food manufacturing businesses to use up waste products from their other industries... not with the primary aim of providing our pets with the best and most appropriate nutrition possible. I also note that with all the scandals over the years over experiments on animals, and ingredients that go into pet foods - we may have come a long way, but we're not up to a standard yet that I'd have any confidence in feeding this stuff to my pets. It is only a couple of years, for example, since the last phenobarbitol discovery in several well-known brands (which likely means that euthanased pets were used in the production of the food). Nice, hmmm?

Well, there have been plenty of scandals in the human food industry too - so the act of feeding raw doesn't guarantee your pet will not be exposed to any nasty chemicals or other inappropriate events that may have occured somewhere in the food chain. But standards and checking processes are far higher in the human food industry than in the pet food industry. In addition to believing that a natural raw diet is species-appropriate while a diet based on extruded grains is not, I also have a higher degree of confidence in the quality of the food available. And so - it remains unlikely that I will consider a switch to kibble at any stage in the near future.

[Borgan]

We, too, had difficulties with kibble in the beginning; namely, diahrea & lack of appetite. Since switching to a balanced raw diet, our dog doesn't get sick and she is very high-energy. Nice coat, too!

One [wo]man's story....

~Brooke.

[sakirby]

i am right there with brooke. oscar had bad gas, diarrhea, etc. when he was on kibble. on raw, he still has occasional gas, no diarrhea. and compared to many other frenchies that i know his age, he is not overweight. i know so many people that overfeed. it is dangerous for a puppy to grow too rapidly and dangerous for frenchies to be overweight. in my experience, it is difficult to get an overweight dog with raw unless you are really feeding a ton. i feed oscar 10 oz. a day and he is still a bit skinny :)

[wiltonyeh]

Thanks for all the great replies. However, now that my mind processing all this information, I have a few more questions.

Now I'm leaning towards a raw diet. I just noticed that Fromm's has a Raw diet line also. Does anyone have any experience with them? I've put the link below.

http://www.frommfamily.com/products_fourstarraw.asp

They seem to put alot of other things into their food whereas Bravo has much fewer ingredients. I can understand having more ingredients could be bad if my puppies have any allergies, but should I try the Fromm's line first and then switch to Bravo if they show any symptoms? Are the ingredients in the Fromm's Raw diet considered quality and are there any vegetables/fruits that shouldn't be fed to frenchies? I know the WDJ publishes a list of the best dry foods. Do they have something like this for the Raw foods available?

I am worried that my frenchies wouldn't be getting all the necessary vitamins and minerals through a Raw diet which is why I am considering using the NuVet Plus supplements. I am even thinking about giving my puppies the NuJoint since hip and joint problems are common to the breed.

As it stands now, the breeder that I will be purchasing my pups from is xxxxxx kennel. I chose them because someone local to Chicago recommended them and I would be able to go pickup the puppies versus have them shipped. I asked them many questions about their dogs and they were more than willing to answer any questions I had for them. Overall, I feel comfortable with purchasing our puppies from them except for one thing: they sell their puppies at 8 weeks when it seems most people recommend 12-16 weeks. I've included a link to their website and I'm wondering if anyone has heard of them.

Link removed by moderator

Again, thanks for all your comments as this this board has become such a valuable resource. We still have six months before we will be able to get our puppies since my current residence doesn't allow dogs and we will be moving into our new place, which does allow dogs, in December.

[franp]

I looked at the website; Sorry this is a backyard breeder. I would not buy a dog from them.

As to joint and hip problems being common to our breed; that is not something I have ever heard. May I ask where you found this piece of information?

Reputable breeders do NOT charge by color.Not the ones that I know.And I am VERY involved in the frenchie community.Do these people do any testing? I doubt it;OFA testing can not be done before a pup is 10 weeks old; so a pup that is sold at 8 weeks can not be exrayed.

There are no pedigrees listed on the site; you do not even know where the pups come from ,much less the background.
I could go on; you get the idea.

For food; IMO, less is better. I feed bravo and my dog is very healthy.

[gmacleod]

Sorry, but I have deleted the link you posted. We don't allow breeders (even reputable ones) to be advertised on this board or links to breeder sites to be posted here. Please check the site rules at www.bulldogworld.com/rules

[wiltonyeh]

Whoops! :o Sorry about that. In no way was that meant as an advertisement. An honest mistake which won't happen again.

From Fran's post, it looks like I should begin looking for another breeder...this whole process is like adopting a child! :lol: