Crate Training Issues

[pamelay2000]

Hi All - I finally got a great little Frenchie. Butters is almost 9 weeks old and I've had him for 5 days and he's been such a joy. We decided to crate train him after talking to a lot of people and I have a few questions for anyone with experience! When I put him in the crate, he starts to yelp and cry, cry, cry which breaks my heart but I also want an obedient dog and train him as quickly as I can (I understand he is very young and prepared for lots of mishaps and accidents). How does one balance the disciplining and wanting to make him stop crying by going to him?

[franp]

Welcome,
Your dog can cry longer than you can listen...And everytime you go to him when he cries, you are teaching him that crying gets him what he wants.

Make sure that he does not have to potty. And if necessary, cover the crate with a light cloth. This seems to help in many cases.And develop a thick skin... :(

Do you have the crate in the bedroom with you at night? If not, you should.
Make sure your pup is TIRED before you put Butter in so he will want to sleep.That is a big help..

As far as training fast; forget it..Expect Butter to be at least 7 months old..These are NOT easily trained dogs.The first few days/weeks are not easy.Especially when your dog is that young.

[ledhed]

In a nutshell: Ignore the crying. It sounds harsh, but the more you respond to it, the more you reinforce it, and the more he'll cry and throw tantrums when you put him in. Some crying is to be expected in the first few days, and some dogs are worse than others about it.... but I can't stress enough that unless something is really really wrong with him and that's why he's crying, then you should completely ignore it.... in fact... don't even enter the room where his crate is while he's crying. Pretend you are literally deaf to it. It is for this reason that I put Napoleon's crate in my bedroom, a room where I rarely go except to sleep.... I found that if he was in my common "living areas" and could see me, he would cry more. When alone in the bedroom, he very quickly caught on that crate time = nap time and would go right to sleep in a few minutes. This allowed me to put him to bed for the night about a half hour before I would go to bed, then I could get some shut eye in peace if I was careful not to wake him up.

All that being said, some tips you could try to make him more comfortable in the crate:

- Of course, a crate matress is nice for him. I draped a blanket over the crate to make it feel a little more cozy for him also, so that the crate is only open in the front where the door opens. This helps with the "when I see you I start crying" phenomenon also. They make crate covers for this purpose that you can buy. I'm currently looking for a nice one to make the thing a little less of an eyesore... if you find a source I'd like to know. Also some favorite toys... make sure anything that goes into the crate with him is absolutely safe... no choking hazards. I usually give him a couple of plush toys and a kong or something similar... you'll have to use your judgement based on your dogs chewing behavior (plush might be dangerous if he is a shredder). Some people put a hot water bottle filled with warm water in there also to simulate mommy-dog's body heat.

- Give him treats when you put him in the crate, and tell him how great he is when you put him in there. Never put him in there as a punishment. Even if you're frustrated with him and you're putting him in for a "time out", hold him and pet him for a minute or two before he goes in. The crate should only be associated with good things and warm fuzzys. I would recommend feeding him in the crate too (at least until he's completely reliable about not toileting in the crate). Again, it makes him associate crating with things he likes, it helps get the message across that that is HIS place, and it will make him much less inclined to go to the bathroom in the crate.

- As far as using the crate as a housetraining aid, I would recommend "How to Housebreak your Dog in 7 Days" by Shirlee Kalstone. It's written on a second graders level and should be a pretty easy 20 minute read for most people.... but I found it very helpful and used that method for crate training/housebreaking with Napoleon from day one.... it has worked pretty well and got him very comfortable with the crate very quickly also. He is not, of course, COMPLETELY housebroken... but he is ahead of the curve by my judgement. There is a lot of bad advice around the internet regarding crate training, much of which seems to destroy/decrease the usefullness of the crate as a housetraining aid. I can describe Kalstone's method in more detail if you'd like to hear it..... but for now, I think I've created the longest post ever, definitely the most use of the word "crate" in a single post.... is there an award for that???? :lol:

JL

[pamelay2000]

Thank you all for your advice and thank you ledhead for the time you spent replying! Butters is 9 weeks old today and I have to agree with all of you that ignoring him seems like the best thing. But how do you know if he's trying to get your attention vs he has to go potty? Maybe I won't know for a while... I tried keeping him by my bed last night but got NO sleep - woke up at 1 AM took him out and he peed, then 3 AM he whined and we took him out - nothing - then as soon as we put him in he pooped and it was quite a mess (it was dark and we were trying to ignore his cries while in reality he was covered in poop and unhappy). I have read Kalston's book which I think was excellent and to the point - the thing is, she doesn't address young pups so much - the program is for pups 16 weeks and older. Does that mean I shouldn't do strict crate training until then? We were so tired this morning that we put him back in a small gated bathroom with his crate door open and papers on the floor. We don't want to put too puch pressure on Butters and us! Maybe he needs to get a little bigger before we can expect him to hold his bowels and bladder a little better. In the meantime, he goes in his crate willingly (we don not have him roam around the house alone and he only get free roam time in a gated kitchen) but we will try and feed him in there for double reinforecement. :confused:
Any more advice from seasoned owners is so appreciated!!! :D

[pamelay2000]

Another thing I forgot to mention that probably has an effect on crate training is that we live in an elevator building - we carry Butters until we get downstairs - is this a much harder way to learn?

[Borgan]

Is that "Butters" like from Southpark???

I LOVE IT!

I might steal your name when I have a baby.
Little Butters Bowie.

[paulabeans]

pamelay2000 - first let me say welcome and congratulations!!! appicon

Like Fran said, this breed is a more difficult one to housetrain. And since Butters is so young, his bladder is tiny and he can't hold it for very long. I remember when Molly was young, we took her outside every fifteen minutes!!

JL - I found a website that sells crate covers, etc. Its called petdreams.com. It looks like they have some nice things.

Paula

[ledhed]

Thank you all for your advice and thank you ledhead for the time you spent replying! Butters is 9 weeks old today and I have to agree with all of you that ignoring him seems like the best thing. But how do you know if he's trying to get your attention vs he has to go potty? Maybe I won't know for a while... I tried keeping him by my bed last night but got NO sleep - woke up at 1 AM took him out and he peed, then 3 AM he whined and we took him out - nothing - then as soon as we put him in he pooped and it was quite a mess (it was dark and we were trying to ignore his cries while in reality he was covered in poop and unhappy). I have read Kalston's book which I think was excellent and to the point - the thing is, she doesn't address young pups so much - the program is for pups 16 weeks and older. Does that mean I shouldn't do strict crate training until then? We were so tired this morning that we put him back in a small gated bathroom with his crate door open and papers on the floor. We don't want to put too puch pressure on Butters and us! Maybe he needs to get a little bigger before we can expect him to hold his bowels and bladder a little better. In the meantime, he goes in his crate willingly (we don not have him roam around the house alone and he only get free roam time in a gated kitchen) but we will try and feed him in there for double reinforecement. :confused:
Any more advice from seasoned owners is so appreciated!!! :D

What I would do considering the age is to scale back the program so that you have more frequent goings out.... I started Napoleon on that program at 12 weeks and he did OK with it... you just have to personalize it a bit. try to get a feel for how long he's capable of actually holding it, and put him out that often according to Kaufman's program. I would really avoid letting him go in the crate at all... of course there will be accidents, but every time he does it he will lose a little bit of that "don't go where you eat/sleep" instinct. Dogs that have been allowed (forced) to go in their crate will often have real problems with housebreaking later. I've had similar issues with my apartment.... we have to go down stairs to get out... a couple of times he has opened the floodgates in the in the hallway :( .... it happens.

You could try to paper train him for a few weeks if necessary... but I tend to think this should be avoided if at all possible.... it will probably end up confusing him... but it may be the lesser of two evils :confused: ... Bottom line: you'll have to figure out what works for your specific situation.... the main thing probably is to just be consistent with it.

JL

[pamelay2000]

Is that "Butters" like from Southpark???

I LOVE IT!

I might steal your name when I have a baby.
Little Butters Bowie.


Yes, his name is from Butters of Southpark! You are the one of the few that got the connection. you have my permission to steal his name!

[Borgan]

Alright!

But I might also use Polly Prissy Pants if I have a girl.
And whenever I say her her name, I'll say it like Cartman -
"Pollaay Prithy Panths! You come heee-ah!"

Give Butters a little pat on the bum for me.

[UFshutterbabe]

I just wanted to throw out the "puppy litter box" suggestion. We live in an apartment where it's not easy to get downstairs 12 times a day for puppy potty training, so we decided to litter box train Maxwell. It was great when he was a little 10 week old with no bladder control - we had a box in his crate, we didn't have to get up in the middle of the night to let him go potty, and we didn't have to truck him up and down the stairs all the time for potty trips.
Now that Maxwell is older, we've introduced the option of going outside on the grass as well as the box. It didn't confuse him, and now he can pee outside like a normal dog too.
Anyway, it's not for everyone, but it is something to think about.
-Lauren

[miss heather]

or you could try a Pet-A-Potty...
www.petapotty.com

maybe they're a whole lotta hype... but we couldn't resist, and ours is on the way! :p

living on the 22nd floor of an apartment building, it's a long way down to the grass outside!
We'll put it on the balcony (in place of the puppy-pads already there), and VOILA! Instant yard!

[sakirby]

pamelay...

i just want to say that i was in your EXACT situation when i got oscar. had to run him downstairs. he cried when we put him in his crate....all that. i will tell you what we did.

we gated oscar in the kitchen. and his crate was in there. in the beginning, we didn't shut his crate door. in the day if he was napping in his crate, i would keep an eye on when he came out of it. then, i would take him out. at night, we put him in his crate for bed, and he was usually so tired he would stay in there. no newspaper on the ground, nothing. i didn't want to ever encourage him to go inside. so, in the beginning. accidents. crying. me in total hell. the one thing i couldn't stand was his crying...just look at some of my old posts :) i will tell you, from experience. it will end. you HAVE to ignore it. as for the accidents, if it is in the kitchen, and you can clean it up. just do so. what i would do at first is, at night, i would wake up when he cried, take him out, back in the crate. there WILL be accidents but, it WILL get better. another thing i did was when he was a baby like yours, i would get up when he cried and take him out (in the night), and it slowly became later and later that he would cry. after two weeks, he was making it til 6 am. so, i started setting my alarm for 6am. it sucked. woke up, woke him up, took him out. over the last few months, i have increased my wake up time. now, he goes to bed around 11pm(a few hours before i usually go to bed), and he sleeps accident free until about 9 am.

so, i promise you, it will get better. my best advice would be to ignore the crying if your pup cries right after you put it in the crate. if it is awhile after it has been silent, then take him/her out, and put back in the crate ignoring crying.

i understand that it is really hard. i went through ALL of this with oscar. he is 6 months old now and hasn't had an accident in about 3 weeks. so, it will happen!

about the stairs....until oscar was a bit older and better at going to the bathroom outside, i carried him out to his potty spot. if i didn't, he would go on the way downstairs. but, as he got better, i started walking him quickly out. that is what i would suggest.

and about the training...my experience is that you can't start to early. oscar new how to sit at 8 weeks old and learned a lot in the next few months. i just wouldn't expect rapid learning til they are a bit older. anyway, good luck! i remember exactly what you are going through since i just have been through it! you will be suprised about how things change as your pup gets older!

[evangelie]

I do exactly as Fran suggests. I also have "cooling off" periods when she plays too rough and gets too excited playing with our newf.