So far so good

[jakethesnake]

Well its been 4 days since my puppy Stitch was diagnosed with demodex and a UTI, and so far so good. There have been no adverse reactions to the ivomec so far, however she is on a very low dose. She starts a higher one on Wednesday so we'll have to wait and see. The pink skin and rash seem to be getting worse but I have been told that it may get worse before it gets better. The vet said she would keep in touch every few days to see how she is handling the medication so that is reassuring. I am still a little overwhelmed with all of the contradictory information that I have read about the disease. Some say it should be treated aggressively while others say to leave it and see if the puupy's immune system kicks in and cures itself. I talked to my breeder again today and she doesn't understand where Stitch could have picked it up since they were born by cesearean section and didn't have much contact with their mother for the first few days of life which is when they are supposed to contract the mites. I don't know what to think. I don't know where else she could have picked it up. She suggested that I give the pup some echinacea to help build her immune system. Has anyone heard of this?
I would really like to here from someone who has lived through demodex.
Also some of you mentioned another chat board called petfrenchies. I can't seem to find it. Would someone be able to give me the site information? Thanks!
P.S. Thanks to all of you who responded to my previous post. The support and compassion really helped to make a difficult situation easier.

[adora's mom]

You & Stitch are certainly in our thoughts - hope she's feeling better soon! I wish I had more information on Demodex, but I am uneducated on the subject.

However, I do have the link for the Yahoo petfrenchies group for you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/petfrenchies/

Take care!

[franp]

[I talked to my breeder again today and she doesn't understand where Stitch could have picked it up since they were born by cesearean section and didn't have much contact with their mother for the first few days of life which is when they are supposed to contract the mites. I don't know what to think. IJake,
I am glad Stitch is doing well.. It must be very difficult with all of the information; some contradicting the other.

One thing; Even though the pups are C-sectioned, they are with the Mom immediately.. They nurse and stay with the Mom from the time they are born.
Just about all American French Bulldogs are C-sectioned and all stay with their Moms.She has to not only feed them, but stimulate them to urinate and defecate. She is also instrumental in keeping them warm..Basically she leaves them only to eat and elimate.

fran

[LolasMom]

My 14 week old Puppy Lola has a slight case of Demodex, the vet said that it will cure itself as soon as her immune system gets stronger. It was also recommended to me on a different french bulldog area to apply lemon juice topically, and that has helped. Her hair on the base of her ears is already filling in. I've also been giving her skin & Coat vitamin supplements, I think the main vitamin they recommend is Vitamin E. I'm sorry to hear about your poor frenchie hope she feels better soon!!

Tralee & Lola :)

[frenchiesmom]

Ok, here is something I know A LOT about. While I am new to frenchies, I have had pugs for many years, and it is pretty common with them.

I have researched, and studied demodec extensively as I have had more than one experience with this dreadful disease over the years, and spend tons of money unnecesarily, as well as time learning what I have learned about demodec. I know, what I know, from experience.

First of all..Puppies are born with demodec. Meaning a c-section would have nothing to do with it. Either there mother or father (usually the mother) carries the gene. It is hereditary. The puppy has it the minute it is concieved. Breeders who have a dog with demodec are not supposed to breed them, but many do, then come up with all these scenarios when a pup shows up with it, for it may not show up in every litter. It may not even show up in every mate of the same litter. This is why many breeders will continue to breed a dog with this gene. All dogs do carry the mite, that part is true, BUT it only escallates in those with a weak immune system. In other words, if your pup has a weak immune system, then so does the mother. One may come up with it, but there may five which don't, which was the deal with one of my cases.

Treatment.. Ivomec is certainly one solution, but would not be the one I use. You have to be very careful with ivomec. It can be very dangerous and it takes time, which gives your vet more money. Has your vet ever mentioned a dip called Mitaban? It works very well, and in about a month to 6 weeks, your pup will be cured. You can even do it yourself if your vet will give it to you. I know, because I did. Much cheaper and quicker. I spent over $2000.00 learning what I know.

Grow out of it...UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES take this chance with your pup. I cannot even imagine someone mentioning it. I almost lost a pup due to demodec. Not because it was born with it, but because it was such a severe case which had went untreated. It was so sad. They were ready to put the pup to sleep. Fortunately I lready knew what I knew and took the pup. He is now 6 years old, and sassy as all get out.THEY CAN AND DO DIE WITH IT, though NOT unless it is a severe case which goes untreated. If on top of the situation, in most cases, it can be cured quickly and easily. If not treated, it can become very serious and even deadly..I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE.

Well as they say, I will get off my soapbox for now, but I get so mad over this subject..and the things people who don't know are told.

If there are any further questions please just ask. As I said I have spent a lot of time, sleepless nights, money and worst of all seen some pretty sad cases and sick puppies because of this disease due to people like me and you just simply ..NOT KNOWING.

PLEASE, If there any questions, and I can help, please just ask. I am more than happy to help if I can

frenchiesmom

frenchiesmom

[Martina]

FrenchiesMom -- that was a great post! That's what I love about this forum. I learn so much from people! I'm so sorry that you had to learn it all the hard way, but so glad that I've got the benefit of your knowledge. Thank You!!

[frenchiesmom]

No problem martina..Don't know a lot but am happy to share what I do know.. I am just glad to be able to give something back to the forum for what I have learned

frenchiesmom

[Carolyn]

I am somewhat familiar with mitaban dip...having worked for a vet years ago and have to adamantly disagree in that this is a VERY strong medication and should NOT EVER be administered at home. My brother is also our vet and he insists that mitaban be used in the hospital under his very close supervision.
Please consult with your vet first! Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Here is a link that talks about mitaban and you will see that they recommend that this is given under vet supervision.

http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=1515

[frenchiesmom]

Everyone has their own opinion, but I have used Mitaban several times and never had any problem. I have seen far worse results with ivomec even when used by a vet. I would NEVER allow it to be used on my dog, and any vet who says ivomec isn't dangerous is not being honest. In most cases it is only a way for the vet to make more money. I have lerned this the hard way. But as I said everyone has their own opinion, and everyone has to make their own choices. But mine would be Mitaban over Ivomec any day .

frenchiesmom

[frenchiesmom]

Yes, it is recomended that it be used under a vets supervision. I am not disputing that. But following your vets advice on how to use it, is under a vets supervision, is it not? and it has to be gotten from a vet. But it can be used to cure demodec a lot quicker, a lot cheaper, and a lot safer than ivomec.

frenchiesmom

[Carolyn]

Frenchiesmom...I would take issue that vets are only looking for the money....really makes me angry because my brother is also our vet and he only prescribes what is best for the animal being treated and the revenue is never an issue with him. Maybe he has more integrity than most but I trust his protocol. Ivermectin is a med prescribed for heartworm and is very effective. From what I am reading...ivermectin can be prescribed for mange...but there are concerns with the doseage needed for this particular condition. Here is another link:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/ivermectin.html

Carolyn

[frenchiesmom]

I am not saying ALL vets do, but many do, I know, and I am not going to argue. I only know what I have been through, and my experiences, and know where 2 different dogs, with 2 different vets cost me over $2000.00 with ivomec and about 2 months, and that makes me angry when another vet on another (almost dead dog) gives me a bottle of mitaban, instructs me on how to use it, and for about $60.00 and two weeks later the dog was cured and is still with me. This is all I am saying on the issue.

frenchiesmom

[maddiesmom]

Ok, here is something I know A LOT about. While I am new to frenchies, I have had pugs for many years, and it is pretty common with them.

I have researched, and studied demodec extensively as I have had more than one experience with this dreadful disease over the years, and spend tons of money unnecesarily, as well as time learning what I have learned about demodec. I know, what I know, from experience.

First of all..Puppies are born with demodec. Meaning a c-section would have nothing to do with it. Either there mother or father (usually the mother) carries the gene. It is hereditary. The puppy has it the minute it is concieved. Breeders who have a dog with demodec are not supposed to breed them, but many do, then come up with all these scenarios when a pup shows up with it, for it may not show up in every litter. It may not even show up in every mate of the same litter. This is why many breeders will continue to breed a dog with this gene. All dogs do carry the mite, that part is true, BUT it only escallates in those with a weak immune system. In other words, if your pup has a weak immune system, then so does the mother. One may come up with it, but there may five which don't, which was the deal with one of my cases.

Treatment.. Ivomec is certainly one solution, but would not be the one I use. You have to be very careful with ivomec. It can be very dangerous and it takes time, which gives your vet more money. Has your vet ever mentioned a dip called Mitaban? It works very well, and in about a month to 6 weeks, your pup will be cured. You can even do it yourself if your vet will give it to you. I know, because I did. Much cheaper and quicker. I spent over $2000.00 learning what I know.

Grow out of it...UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES take this chance with your pup. I cannot even imagine someone mentioning it. I almost lost a pup due to demodec. Not because it was born with it, but because it was such a severe case which had went untreated. It was so sad. They were ready to put the pup to sleep. Fortunately I lready knew what I knew and took the pup. He is now 6 years old, and sassy as all get out.THEY CAN AND DO DIE WITH IT, though NOT unless it is a severe case which goes untreated. If on top of the situation, in most cases, it can be cured quickly and easily. If not treated, it can become very serious and even deadly..I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE.

Well as they say, I will get off my soapbox for now, but I get so mad over this subject..and the things people who don't know are told.

If there are any further questions please just ask. As I said I have spent a lot of time, sleepless nights, money and worst of all seen some pretty sad cases and sick puppies because of this disease due to people like me and you just simply ..NOT KNOWING.

PLEASE, If there any questions, and I can help, please just ask. I am more than happy to help if I can

frenchiesmom

frenchiesmom

This is a great post and I too have pugs so I know all about demodec mange. I bought a beautiful champion sired female and at 8 months she had a small spot on her front leg. We had her spayed end of that dream. I agree that Ivomec is a little scary, doseage is very important. The breeder I bought Maddie from uses it for everything. Please take the time to check out this website. Maddie has yeast problems and we have dealt with hair problems,itching, smelling, and scabs. We spent thousands and it would clear up for a few weeks than back again. She was on way to much medicine for me to feel comfortable. Then a bulldog breeder told me about Nzymes products. After 2 months the smell was gone, no iching,or shedding.
www.nzymes.com Good Luck MM

[franp]

First, let me say, I do not have experience with Demodex.

But the topic does interest me, so I went to the web to research it..The first contraindication that I saw;Mitiban was not to be used for localized Demodex.So, if the outbreak is minimal, dipping SEEMS to be a very drastic measure.

This looks like a very toxic drug; both to the dog and the human. If I were to find that I would use it; I think I would go to a vet.The side effects are numerous; that is not to say Ivermectin's are not.

ALL drugs have side effects; what you are willing to risk is up to you.How severe the outbreak is is also a mitigating factor.And how much you trust your Vet plays a large part.

This morning ,as an aside, I was at a dog show.Just out of curiousity, I asked the breeders what treatment they used; All said Ivermectin.

They all were unanimous in telling me that any bitch/dog who showed the disease was pulled from breeding.

Treatment of our dogs (as what we feed) is a very individual matter.
We , at the end of the day must live with the choice we make.

[frenchiesmom]

Well, then use your own judgement. I am not a vet or a show person. I just know from my own personal experiences with both drugs. I will stay with mitaban if needed. End of subject for me

frenchiemom

[maddiesmom]

I forgot to add the website I recommended is all natural products appicon I have before and after pictures of Maddie.

[ilmfrenchies]

Frenchiesmom you are so right. My daugher's pug had a slight case(if there is such a thing) of this and thank goodness (and after a long time) of treatment it finally cleared up. She was about 6 mos. when it showed up. On another forum there is a person that has an English Bulldog that has had one of the worse cases of this that I have ever seen. His dog is on the shots as it seems nothing else worked for him. It looks like from the pics he posts that it is getting better. From all I know and have heard about this is that it is indeed hereditary.

[franp]

Yes, I agree it is hereditary. Many times Demodex first manifests around the time a dog starts to sexually mature; 6 month or so. The hormones put so much stress on the body that an already compromised immune system just shuts down.

And I have never heard of a dog "growing out" of Demodex, either.

[ilmfrenchies]

Fran I remember my daughter telling me this when her pug at 6 mos. had this. I also remember her telling me that the vet told her that although it was not for sure but it was a good chance that since she was so young that she may not ever have this again (which could mean she may grow out of it in layman terms) however it was not a good sign if dogs got this at an older age. She is three years now and lucky for my daughter and Penny she has not had anymore problems with this. This disease is a monster. I feel for any breed and their owner having to deal with this.

[frenchiesmom]

It is my understanding that they "never grow out of it" but they may never have it rear it's ugly head again. Fortunately (at least so far) none of the cases I have ever dealt with have ever had a reoccurance. But the possibility is there. But just as possible it won't. All the cases I have dealt with have been young puppies. But I am told it is a much more serious disease with an older dog. The important thing to remember with this disease is to NEVER let it go untreated, be it a puppy or an older dog. If treated it promptly it can, and is, in most cases successful. Without treatment, it can be fatal.

frenchiesmom

[franp]

When the vets say "outgrow" do they mean the outward sign of the Demodex? Or are they talking about the weakened immune system? Again, I don't agree that it is "outgrown".

Again this is just a rhetorical question, as I have not had a dog with this condition.

I do agree completely that this something that DEMANDS attention and treatment.

If anyone might want to answer of those whose dogs have had this; do you think that your dogs are any less "hardy'? Do they seem to be more prone to infection or illness?
I hope this is an appropriate question.

[frenchiesmom]

What it means is that the dog has a weakened immune system. This is how the demodec mites are able to take over. All dogs have them but, a dog with a normal immune system would be able to keep them under control. One with a weakened system, they cannot keep them under control and the mites accelerate. That dog will always have a weakened immune system which is why they should not be bred again. They are likely to pass this on to the puppies ( though not necessarily)

As to your question about illnesses, yes you would think they would be more susceptible to illness, and probably in a less that perfect environment, or an uncared one, are. But mine have never had any problem with sickness, but then they get the best of care also. Given the proper normal care, I don't think it would ever be a problem.

The outward sign, (the bumps, sickness and so forth) is what the vets are referring to when they say outgrow, though I have yet to see one "outgrow" it. It is very miserable for a puppy/adult. I cannot imagine anyone waiting to see if they outgrow it, when it can be treated, and much relief given to the dog in the process. The option to let them "outgrow" it doesn't excist with me. The first signs are usually small bumps (like little pimples) on the head, belly or around the feet. With mine they have always appeared on the head first.

frenchiesmom

[quinnybear]

i see everyone has different opinions. thats what makes this forum so interesting. i guess i am really a dummy because this is the first i have ever heard of demodex. the only kind of mange i have heard of is sarcoptic mange. has anyone heard of that and what is the difference? rocky is almost five months old . can they develop it later on? and what signs do i look for when the new puppy arrives? i have heard the imports are more prone to it

[frenchiesmom]

Sarcoptic is a different mite. There are sarcoptic mites and demodec mites. It just depends on which mite is causing the problem, though usually in a dog with a weakened system it is the demodec mite which causes problems.

The first signs are small bumps ( like hard little pimples) usually appearing on top of the head first, but can also appear on the belly or legs. If they start you WILL notice. A redness around the bumps area will start next. However you will notice the bumps beofre that starts. If you do find any, your vet will do a scraping to determine for sure that they are demodec, and they are easily treated if caught in time. It is not anything to worry about as long as you stay on top of it, and treat it quickly and promptly.

Rocky could still develop it, though it has been my experience that it usually occurs around 3 months old, but if Rocky has a weak immune system, then yes it could occur at any stage of life, and is said to be much more serious in an older dog. Though my cases have always been puppies. Your new puppy would be the one to watch closest. In my opinion since Rocky hasn't yet, he is not apt to. It also appears to be more common in females than males.

frenchiesmom

[quinnybear]

the new pup is a female and she is coming from russia. could it be transferable to rocky is she does have it? should i keep them seperate for awhile?

[frenchiesmom]

Demodec is not contagious UNLESS Rocky were to have a weak immune system. The only dogs to have problems with demodec are ones with weak immune systems. Normal immune systems are able to keep the mites under control even if they are around one which has it. The only problem I see is that you do not know for certain that Rocky doesn't have a weak immune system. I think it pretty safe to say he probably doesn't, but you don't know for sure, and there lies the problem. In any case I wouldn't worry about it, till there is something to worry about. You could make yourself sick with worry and all the "what if's" and destroy the pleasure and excitementof getting your new puppy, when it is totally unnecessary. The main thing is just WATCH but don't worry. If you do see bumps, the vet can take care of it and treat it easily when caught early.

As for the shipping question and Germany, that is out of my league. I have no experience at all with shipping puppies or Russian breeders. There are others on here better suited to answer that question.

frenchiesmom

[quinnybear]

i cant wait to see pics of your babies, especially olly as i am partial to the black masked fawns and reds. rocky is red and his soon to arrive playmate is a real rich red. i posted her pics (she was three weeks old) hopefully they go through alright. i had some trouble trying to post some other ones. not real computer savy ! :confused:

[frenchiesmom]

I know what you mean. I tried to find the pics of your new baby but couldn't. Maybe they arn't posted yet. That is why I haven't posted any. I am not computer savy either. I have been so busy I haven't had time to try and figure it out. I have to look after my elderly parents to, and between them and my furbabies it keeps me pretty busy..But I love em all, and wouldn't have it any other way.

frenchiesmom

[franp]

Thanks Frenchiesmom for your answer.
As for Sacroptic (sp) mange, that is contagious to Humans as well. It is also know as Scabies. A horrid condition.

As I said, I have not (thankfully) have had a dog with this, but have learned a great deal from this discussion.

[Kelly+Manja]

hi everyone
turns out manja also has demodec. I mentioned it a few days ago that he had a little bald spot on his cheek. I took him to the vet this morning and the vet prescribed ivomec (0.1 ml on the first day, 0.2 on the second, 0.3 on the third and then 0.4 for the next 2- 4 weeks.) i have also been prescribed an antibiotic (clavulox)to give him, half a tablet twice a day for 2 weeks as the vet says that you also have to treat the cause of the demodec. He let me look at the 'bugs' under the microscope which was interesting. They look like little cigars with 8 legs. He also mentioned that all dogs have the bug and even humans do too on our eyelashes!
I was reading the previous posts on this thread and noticed some people are against ivomec so Im a little worried.
The vet did mention to me that it isnt technically made for dogs and is actually originally for livestock like sheep and cattle, but that he has been using it on dogs for years now and out of maybe 100 cases only 2 will suffer side effects.
Ill let you all know how manja goes :)

[jakethesnake]

Thanks for all the great information. We are going to see the vet tomorrow for another urine analysis. She also wants to weigh Stitch and possibly increase her dosage of ivomec. So far there have been no side effects but she is only on .01 mls. I will definately ask about the mitiban dip. It is not something she even mentioned when we were discussing treatments for the demodex. I am also wondering if anyone has given their frenchie echinacea and if so what dosage?
I will keep you updated on Stitch's progress. It was encouraging to here from people who have actually lived through this.