How old??

[franp]

How old should your Frenchie be when you bring it home?And why?

Reputable breeders will not send a pup home before it is 14 weeks in the majority of cases,for many reasons.

First, pups need to learn how to be dogs; this is the time that they spend with thier littermates learning.Learning thier place in the hierarchy; if they are alpha or omega. Learning how to play and read the signals; like what the play bow is.Learning from thier mom about bite inhibition. Learning how to interact with people. Learning how to be good canine citizens.

Pups also need to adjust to real food.Weaning , done properly is a slow process.The pups alternate between Mom and puppy gruel sometimes till they are 8 weeks. Then, they go to puppy food.

Most breeders like thier pups to have at least two sets of shots , if not all thier shots before they go to thier new homes.another reason to wait.

Pups that go younger than 12 weeks are the ones that suffer from seperation anxiety, stomach problems and behavior issues in many cases.
And the reason that the "breeder"lets them go that young?It costs money to keep them longer.Simple economics..

No reputable breeder would ever let a pup out before 12 -14 weeks. Puppy millers and BYB's do not want to spend the money. The earlier they sell them, the greater the profit.

Many people feel that the pup will not bond as well if it is older;NOT SO.A confident pup will be more relaxed in new surroundings.It will recognize a new pack leader (owner) and follow.

I have seen retired show dogs go to new homes and within 24 hours bond to the new owners. Our dogs are bred to be companions.It is thier nature to bond.. Well bred dogs will bond.

Be WARY of anyone telling you that it is ok to get a pup at anything under 12 weeks.

Unless you are very experienced with dogs (like Roosje) few of us have the acumen to teach a pup to be a dog.

[franp]

That is very interesting Roojse.But, the FB club in the Netherlands is MUCH stronger than any governing body we have here.And is much more in control of the breeders than the FBC or the various registry bodies here.

I have a feeling it is more difficult to purchase a dog in the Netherlands than it is here as well (from the less than reputable breeders).

When Dari came home to me,I took her everywhere. She was not afraid of anything or any noise.but then again her breeder socialized her.He took her and her littermates with him to town and had people in the house.She was handled by his family.This was possible because he has only a few dogs; not the multitude that the millers and byb's have.

The key is to expose the pups to everything safely.

Thank you for explaining how it works in the Netherlands.

[franp]

Unlike in the U.S.A, here in the Netherlands reputable FB breeders who are associated with the official FB association let their puppies go to their new owners with 8 weeks. The first socialization phase is in the 4th, 5th and 6th week. The second socialization is in the 7th 8th and 9th week. In the first phase they learn that they are like their mother, brothers and sisters, in the second phase they learn to interact with their environment. Personally I like to guide my puppy myself through the second phase. I introduced Dot and Mo to all kind of things in that second phase. I introduced them to traffic, children, other dogs who I know are to be trusted and vaccinated etc. I carried them in a bag where they could safely observe this new and strange world. In the 10th, 11th and 12th weeks they strongly bond and develope flee instincts.

The second phase is important that it is done right. In Amerika reputable breeders have decided not to take any risks and guide the puppies themselves through this phase. Here in the Netherlands breeders have made another choice knowing that they would never be able to give all of the puppies the same socialization which a responsible owner could give to his one and only puppy.

Who is right? I don't know. Both has its advantages and disadvantages

Roosje


Roosje, I think the sucess of the way you do it in the Netherlands is due to the fact that the pups live in the house the first 8 weeks of thier life. And that this is REQUIRED.

If breeders here were required to do this;than I would be much more comfortable with pups leaving the breeder earlier than they do.

Your system has much more control..and that is why it works for you.

[Martina]

I'm glad that you brought this issue up Fran. This was one of the issues that I had discovered was particularly important to frenchies and their socialization phases. I also think that most of us are used to thinking that puppies can leave the dam at 8wks - and aren't they just so much cuter so much smaller??

It's really funny too, but this is the second time that you brought up an issue that I was actually thinking about today - weird! I was thinking about how I got Gigi & Lola about 1wk apart, and how they're a week apart in age. I got Lola at 12wks and Gigi at 14wks. But of the two, Lola has always been the easier, more relaxed dog. Socialization is a big part, but I also think that every dog just has their personality. Which is also weird/funny, because outsiders dote on Gigi and think that she's the sweetest dog when they meet her. But she is so different from Lola and me (I'm also much more laid back ;) - ha!) that I found Gigi really difficult to adjust to. Lola's the one that wants to climb on my lap and sit for hrs, but Gigi's the one that "feels" needy.

Oh, and on anther topic ... Lola has started really breathing heavily on our walks as it's started warming up. I've been wondering about her palatte/nares for a while now (what with all the talk about it recently). She snores at night, but it's the fact that we've had to cut our walks short because of her breathing that worries me. The vet has never been concerned, but we've got an appointment for next week to decide if, or what, steps should be taken -- or if I'm blowing it out of proportion :rolleyes: as I am wont to do.

[franp]

Martina,

I think that older is better; but each dog is an individual personality. As you see one dog is more needy than the other. But IMO ,both of yours were old enough to leave. Just one is more "clingy " than the other..
If you said that she was 10 weeks than I would say "I told you so ( ;) )But really one dog is just more laid back..

As for the breathing; how are your dogs weight?(how is that for a nonsequitor?)Dari is one of the best breathers ; for a while she was panting badly. Why? because she had gotten FAT!The minute I got her wieght down , she stopped panting.

As for you getting out of control; NOT!Breathing is a VERY big issue. If your dog has these issues and they go uncorrected; you are compromising the quality of life. It can cause cardiac insufficiency..

The only problem is that the ONLY way to tell is under anesthetic..

[Martina]

[QUOTE=franp]As for the breathing; how are your dogs weight?(how is that for a nonsequitor?)

Lola is thin!

It's Gigi who's the pudge-muffin (and me too :D) ... but of course it's Lola with the breathing problems. I think she's 22/3lbs? And Gigi seems to have grown an inch longer overnight. The doctor mentioned listening to her heart to check out her beathing? I have no clue how the two are related - as I said, he's never thought her breathing was a problem before. From my own empirical evidence, I've always thought that Lola's heart seems faster than Gigi's, but what do I know?!

So we'll start with our own vet next week and go from there ...

[adora's mom]

Martina,

Please let us know what the vet says about Lola. Hopefully it's nothing!

Take care,
Lesley

[adora's mom]

I would definately agree with what Fran said about the age of puppies leaving their dam & littermates. I have witnessed first hand what happens when a puppy leaves too soon. I found Beckham when he was 10 weeks old. He was being severely abused as a stray by some god-awful kids in a dog fighting, gang infested neighborhood.

His early experiences have certainly shaped his view of the world...

Crate training? Ha! Forget about it. He is inconsolable and nearly kills himself trying to get out.

Vet visits? Muzzled. He can't stand being restrained.

People yelling on TV? Cowers and cringes.

All of his bad experiences happened during that fear imprint phase - he has been living the life of luxury since then, but he still remembers that yuckky stuff :(

So, what I meant to say (before I went off on a tangent) is that those early formative weeks play a large part in the reactions and responses of your adult dog. Especially during those imprint phases, the more time a puppy has with the dam/littermates and getting proper socialization, the better. You have a better chance of ending up with a well adjusted adult dog. IMHO...

-Lesley

[franp]

I would definately agree with what Fran said about the age of puppies leaving their dam & littermates. I have witnessed first hand what happens when a puppy leaves too soon. I found Beckham when he was 10 weeks old. He was being severely abused as a stray by some god-awful kids in a dog fighting, gang infested neighborhood.

His early experiences have certainly shaped his view of the world...

Crate training? Ha! Forget about it. He is inconsolable and nearly kills himself trying to get out.

Vet visits? Muzzled. He can't stand being restrained.

People yelling on TV? Cowers and cringes.

All of his bad experiences happened during that fear imprint phase - he has been living the life of luxury since then, but he still remembers that yuckky stuff :(

So, what I meant to say (before I went off on a tangent) is that those early formative weeks play a large part in the reactions and responses of your adult dog. Especially during those imprint phases, the more time a puppy has with the dam/littermates and getting proper socialization, the better. You have a better chance of ending up with a well adjusted adult dog. IMHO...

-Lesley

This can go both ways;; IF Beckham was with Roosje as an 8 week old he would have been socialized.

IF Beckham had been with a REPUTABLE breeder he would have been socialized.

The Netherlands is a very different place when it comes to dogs. One that the US can take a lesson from.
The less than reputable breeders will not treat the pups well NO matter how long they have them.The reputable breeders here want to make sure that the pups get the right start.
In the Netherlands the breeders (reputable)must keep the dogs in the home; this is KEY.

[aussieowner]

Hi,

We got Mac at around 9 weeks. He was completely crate trained and remarkably socialised, even though he was an only puppy. The breeder wanted Mac to stay for at least another week, but he had his second round of vacs and the vet gave the all clear so we received him a week early.

Now, at 6 months, he is not afraid of anything, gets excited going to the vet and loves socialising with other dogs. In fact, the only thing he is frightened of is Hot Air Balloons - when they get too close.

I credit the breeder completely! She was fantastic!

aussieowner

[Carolyn]

Well....we brought Abby home when she was only 6 wks old! I knew this was too young but I HAD to have her and she was much better off with us. Our breeder was right in the middle of moving and he didn't really have the time to spend with Abby and her littermates. When we went back to buy Ferris a year and 1/2 later...we were chatting and he had forgotten and was amazed that he allowed me to take her at such a young age. I do feel that Abby missed out to a certain degree but she was already separated from her mother and well...like I said....she was better off in our hands. Ferris was around 14 weeks when he came home. It's really hard to say if it made a big difference, since the males can be more laid back anyway. Abby was wound rather tight the first couple of years but has since mellowed out. Ferris is and always will be a BIG GOOF BALL. I love them equally and appreciate their differences. Carolyn

[Martina]

Ferris is and always will be a BIG GOOF BALL.


I can't even begin to wonder what he does that makes him so goofy! But I love imaginging it :p.

[Carolyn]

Martina....imagine a dog who who has to have something in his mouth when you greet him. Imagine a dog who's favorite toy is the pitiful remains of a stuffed teddy bear without the stuffing. Ferris grabs this bear pelt and wags his whole butt end while prancing around.

Ferris believes that there is "something" living underneath our bed. He charges under the bed and barks furiously at this imaginary creature. I think what I find charming and goofy is his nightly tear around the house and 100 MPH. He will do this after Abby has put herself to bed. It's like he is playing with his invisible friend....he has a great time exhausting himself and will finally smile all wided eyed and collapse. Ferris is one amazing boy. :D