A bunch of new puppy questions -- sorry to lump them all in together!

[ewestby]

We have a few questions about Percy, our 12-week old male. Since they're all puppy-related, this seemed wiser than putting the questions in separate folders about feeding, training, etc. :)

1. Following the breeder's advice, we are using Iams minichunk *adult* food, but I'm beginning to wonder if the breeder really knows what he's talking about. He recommended it, saying it would keep Percy from growing out of control, but to me it feels like we're starving him. We feed him twice a day, 8 a.m. and 6 p.m., 1/3 cup each time. However, he always seems to be ravenous. He's also had very loose stools, and during the day while we're away, he eats them. :^< We've started mixing in half a teaspoon of canned pumpkin (not pie mix), which a friend suggested would help with the loose stools, and it seems to have worked somewhat. The feces-eating still bothers us though. And are the loose stools worth taking him to the vet over?

And was the breeder off his rocker suggesting Iams adult minichunk? Is the amount at least correct? We have a Petco and a PetSmart nearby, so we can buy whatever is best.

2. Percy's going to the bathroom a lot, as often as every 20 minutes. :^< A bright spot is that he's learned that when we take him to the roof deck, it's time to go both #1 and #2, so that's a relief ... but he'll pee on the carpet again within half an hour. Until we get him set up with doggy day care (not that expensive in our area!), he's in a pen in the kitchen during the day, with access to water, and there are up to a dozen messes to clean up when we get home. Is he going more often than is usual?

3. We have a crate for him, though at night we pen him in the kitchen with the crate accessible, but open. He cries or barks once or twice during the night, but usually when we wake up ~6:30 a.m. we find him sleeping in the crate. At what age will he be "ready" to sleep with the crate closed? We tried it closed the very first few night but immediately realized that was a mistake: he had gone to the bathroom several times. :^<

An overarching question is: if the whole point of housebreaking is to convince him that feces is nasty, and something he should hold in -- yet he likes to eat the stuff (!) -- how is he ever going to learn?

Thanks for letting me go on like this. It's great to know we're not in a vaccuum!

Eric, Kevin, & Percy

[lovemyfrenchy]

Iams is not such a great food. And I am sure I will not be the only one to say this. He should be eating puppy food. Adult food will not give him all he needs to grow. Alot of us feed raw. There is alot of good food out there. Gmacleod seems to be the most knowledgeable. As for stool eating could be a puppy thing or maybe he is missing something in his diet? I am not sure. The potty training is something that has reinforced with postive affirmations ( treats, toys ie love). Any training with your new pup should be fun for him or her. As for us it can be quite rewarding and exhausting at the same time. Don't worry you will figure everything out. And I know everyone will rally with answers to all your question. The best advice I can give you. Is enjoy your puppy all of him Good & Bad. Because they never become puppies again. Just our best friends thru our good & bad times! And they always just LOVE US!

[gmacleod]

The one thing the breeder is heading in the right direction on there is giving him an adult food. It's not to say that anything with puppy on the label is bad, but there are a great many puppy foods that are junk - and many more that are dangerously overloaded which can cause skeletal problems. Plenty of adult foods that are junk also, of course. But the trick is to read the label, read the ingredients. Choose something that is of good quality, and that has appropriate protein, calcium and overall calories for a puppy. That does not mean as high as possible - it means moderate. When we're talking about dry foods, something in the range of about 26% protein, 14-17% fat, below 1.5% calcium and that doesn't have an excessive feeding requirement is best. It really doesn't matter what age of dog it's labelled for (and many of the best are all-life-stages foods anyway).

On the subject of adult food that is junk though - I'm afraid Iams certainly is. It's not enough to just choose a food with the right levels of protein, etc. Quality of protein and other ingredients counts as well. And Iams is garbage - some of it literally. The main ingredients in the food are corn and sorghum. For a carnivore. Well, dogs don't digest that sort of thing very well - and that's probably a lot of the reason why your pup is pooping fit to burst. Put undigestible junk in the front end, it comes back out the rear end in much the same quantity ;) The main meat-related ingredient in the food is by-products. That's the stuff deemed unfit for human consumption btw. Not unfit because unwanted. Unfit because it's too low quality. The AAFCO definition for chicken by-product meal is "consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice".

There is a lot more I could say about that food. But I don't think you really need a long list of complaints about it. The by-products alone is enough ;)

I would suggest changing your pup over to a higher quality food. Pick something that has a decent amount of actual meat in it (ie. something he can actually digest and get the nutrients out of, rather than something he's going to just churn out as undigested waste) and as few grains as possible. There is some good information about how to choose a good quality dry food at www.boxerworld.com/feeding The fact that that page is written for boxer owners doesn't change it's relevance for any other breed. The only difference is that you've less (not zero) risk of skeletal damage if your pup is fed an overloaded food.

And for information on the contents of over 600 different foods, plus ratings and reviews, you could visit www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews

Changing to a higher quality food will very likely reduce the amount of poop your puppy is putting out. It will not necessarily eliminate his need to poop overnight though. I'd suggest that it's a better idea to crate him with the door shut, and to set yourself an alarm for mid-way through the night to take him out. As he gets a bit bigger, you can start pushing back the timing of that alarm until you reach morning and the potty break is eliminated.

[Boykins]

Lovemyfrenchy is right: eventually it will all come together and you'll be amazed at how quickly your puppy caught on to everything.

We made several small-scale-yet-horrifying mistakes when Boykins first came home, but we learned from them almost as quickly as she did! :)

I was home with her for the first two weeks, so things were a bit different (it sounds like you might have to leave Percy home alone during the day). However, I can tell you that it felt like I was walking her CONSTANTLY. Taking a cue from our neighbors who adopted Lab puppy a few months before we got Boykins, we tried to track her pee/poo schedule on paper. This could be difficult to do if you aren't home with Percy, but it might help to do it when you are.

In any case, Boykins went frequently at 13 weeks, but was catching on as each day passed. I'm sure you'll see the same is true for Percy.

Good luck!
-sarah (and boykins)

p.s. Our breeder recommended Pro Plan Plus for Puppies (small breed) - say that five times fast! - and we have been quite happy with it. (Of course, Boykins is now going through a phase where breakfast appears to be quite overrated, but she is digging in at dinnertime.) I don't know how this food rates among those more "in the know," but I trust my breeder and Boykins seems to be just fine on this food.

[ewestby]

Thanks for all the replies! Wow, what a wealth of info!

O.K., we are dumping the Iams (with its corn, meat by-products, and sorghum) immediately. My chief question now is about portion size. When we bought the adult food, we used the feeding guidelines on the side of the bag, which were in line with the breeder's recommendations. But when I look at the puppy food bags, the amount they suggest feeding daily is about *double* what's on the adult bag. Ack!

So how much high-quality dog food -- like for example this Pro Plan Select for Puppies, if that's a consensus favorite -- should we be feeding little Percy to keep him healthy, growing, and not starving? :^>

Before you answer that, note that when we first got him, we fed him more of the Iams than we should have, and he had extremely watery diarrhea. After cutting back to the "recommended" 2/3 cup/day the stools are [ahem] structurally sound, though still soft.

[marycas]

I know you can find at least two of the dog foods with 4 stars on the chart previously listed at PetSmart if you choose to improve on the Iams. The more food they can properly utilize, the less they will poop out

Still, if you havent had the little guy checked for worms and all that, I would definitely do so. There are many things the little guys pick up that are just 'normal' but can cause havoc with the digestive system-I would want a clean bill of health in that department

2/3 cup of dry food sounds low to me but I have neither a puppy or a frenchie at this time

Still, that about what my 17 lb 13 yr old couch potato Westie eats

I hear the raw feeders talking 12 ounces which is more like 1 and 1/2 cups and sounds more reasonable

Hopefully, you'll get better answers from those in the same boat

[gmacleod]

If you choose a food labelled for adults, then a bit of an adjustment to the feeding guideline is needed for puppies. Growing pups do require proportionately more food than adults (just like humans kids eat more for their size), but that proportion reduces as the pup grows.

A 10lb 2 month old lab puppy, for example, would eat about twice as much as an adult 10lb chihuahua. But not twice as much as an adult of it's own breed. And by about 6 months, pups are usually eating around about the same amount as recommended for adults of the same weight.

Anyway, if you pick an adult food, then you can make the following approximate adjustment to the adult feeding guideline:
For a 2 month old pup, feed 2x the adult recommendation for that weight.
3 months = 1.75 x
4 months = 1.5 x
5 months = 1.25 x
6 months = the adult amount, or very slightly more if needed.

That's a general guide only (as is what is on the bag in the first place) - particular pups may have different requirements.

As for Pro Plan Selects - I wouldn't personally ever buy it. It's one of Purina's better foods, but that's not really saying that much. At least it doesn't have by-products and chemical preservatives as many of their other offering do - but it is mostly made with low quality grain fractions (floor sweepings and waste products) with only a very small amount of meat in the food. Fact is, I wouldn't even consider buying a food that didn't have a meat meal as the primary ingredient. And grains, where present, should be whole - not the byproducts and waste from the human food industry.

If you'd like an independant recommendation for reasonable quality food, there is a list put out annually by the whole dog journal. They're not associated with any food manufacturers, so no fear of bias there.

[imogene]

Dog food is a common topic here -many of us have had issues with commercial dry food -myself included. You may find www.dogfoodanalysis.com (http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com) helpful too.

The frequency of your puppies #2s is concerning for me - you should take a stool sample in to be checked - it is very possible that the stress of coming home has given him a flare up of coccidia or something else that could trigger a GI issue

As for the problem you have with your puppy eliminating - using the crate properly is the way to go. Our youngest Frenchies is 5.5 months and is very slow with the house training/ crate training. When he frist came home at 13 weeks he needed to pee ever 20 minutes if he was awake. Make sure the crate only allows your puppy enough room to sit, stand, lie down, and turn around - any more and he will find a way to use it. For Sam we had to reduce his crate down to about 13" by 13" with no bedding or stuffed animals (he used those like pee pads) - If your crate doesn't have a divider you have to put something (preferably water proof, and chew proof) in the crate to reduce the space. During his day crate times make sure he has something fun and safe - like a treat stuffed kong to keep him entertained. Your puppy wont be able to last all day in a crate without messing himself - I wouldn't expect a puppy to stay more than 3 or 4 hours in a crate. If you can't find a way to facilitate breaks for the puppy then I would probably leave the crate open in a small cleanable area or in an ex-pen with a pee pad, so that he doesn't get used to having to eliminate where he sleeps. This may slow down house training a bit - but at 12 weeks he is really too young to be left all day.

Oh for food we had success using Canidae All Stages kibble (until Belzie started refusing it) I was feeding her 1-1.5 cup per day, but that was according to the guidelines on the package, and guidelines differ depending on the manufacturer.

[Boykins]

Now that she's older, we're feeding Boykins 1/2 cup at breakfast and at dinnertime.

While Pro Plan Plus for Puppies might not be the #1 food, Boykins eats it, has done a great job processing it (we're not having problems with loose stools - ever), and by all indications is a happy, healthy little girl. Since it was also the food she was getting from her breeder, I was reluctant to switch to something else when she was going through so many other adjustments. Given how well she's doing on it (and she has a great, soft, shiny coat as well), I'm reluctant to change things.

And Imogene is right - there are a lot of posts about feeding, foods, and nutrition, here. One could probably spend a whole weekend researching what works and what doesn't. ;)

Imogene is also right in suggesting more use of the crate. It can be a great tool for teaching proper potty habits, since dogs don't want to eliminate where they sleep. You might want to start by placing Percy in it for small stretches of time after he's been outside to do his business, gradually working to increase the time he's in there. I believe the general rule of max time is age in months, plus one. So if Percy is 3 months, he could conceivably last 4 hours. However, without a bit more experience having to hold it, I don't know that I'd put him in there for that long right now!:)

Good luck!
-sarah and boykins

[L. Cammack]

On the loose stools issue----Have your vet check him check him for Coccidia. Coccidia is very common in puppies. My last puppy, Lily, had it even though the breeder had treated her for it so I didn't think about having her checked. I would definitely have him checked for coccidia even if his symptoms improve because Lily's symptoms improved using the pumpkin, but quickly returned. It takes about 10 days of treatment to cure it.

Linda
Lily and Maggie

[Chris&Eti]

we fed him more of the Iams than we should have, and he had extremely watery diarrhea. After cutting back to the "recommended" 2/3 cup/day the stools are [ahem] structurally sound, though still soft.

One of the most common reasons for diahrrea is overfeeding. The fact that you saw a change when you cut back indicates that is probably the cause.

[ewestby]

Thanks again for all your replies. We've switched to a Castor & Pollux puppy food (http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?R=1300&Nav=1&Ntt=ultramix&N=30%205506&sku=650021&familyID=100263&)) and he liked it immediately. His stools are harder already, so that's a good sign. And the protein content isn't all that much higher than the adult food (29% vs. 26%, if memory serves), so I'm not too concerned about the rapid growth problem.

As far as crating him overnight, we're torn. As we understand it, we'd have to wake up every couple of hours during the night for the first few weeks to take him outside to eliminate? By what point would he be sleeping through the night? Eight months or so? As I said before, it seems to me that a logical precondition would be that Percy *dislikes* his waste and wants to avoid it. Yet he currently pees very close to his crate, and what's worse, eats his feces. So I'm unclear how crating would teach him that "waste = bad."

He is learning the "outside = eliminate" routine more quickly than I expected. (Having grown up with cats, I am still astonished to see an animal can learn anything! Ha.) But while he now knows that when we take him out, it's time to go, he hasn't yet figured out that "inside = DO NOT GO." :^>

And all this is complicated by the fact that we are inclined to train him to use a litter tray instead of always needing to go outside. The one we bought is called the WizDog (http://www.wizdog.com). He hasn't yet really taken to it, though he uses it occasionally along with the pads we put alongside.

Oh, and we're taking him for his first visit to the vet tomorrow, with a stool sample in tow!

Wish us luck as we enter our second week. It's a good thing Percy is so adorable and loving, because a control freak like me never anticipated he'd cause this much stress. ;^D

[Roland]

The diarreha may be caused by the stress of being at a new home. Put him on a bland (homemade boiled chicken and rice) diet until his stools are solid. If you switch to a food while he is still having loose stools, you could make things worse. Puppies dehydrate really fast! Please try a bland diet, then gradually switch him to a more premium brand kibble for all life stages (like Canidae).

No offense, but if he is spending 8-hours alone while you are at work and then another 8 hours alone while you guys sleep, that is waaaaay too much time alone. I would NOT send him to doggie daycare until he is older. Could you get a pet sitter to visit him? Could he sleep in bed with you? He'll need to go out a few times to pee probably, but at least you will be there for him.

[ewestby]

We've definitely considered having him sleep with us! Our chief concern is that he might make a mess in the bed, since he's not big enough to make the leap onto the floor....

May I ask why you're set against doggy daycare? They say they have an area just for puppies, and that they have several frenchies already there. What age do you think is appropriate?

(I also posted a much longer reply to some earlier questions, but it hasn't yet appeared in the thread....)

[Mackies mom]

When we first got Mackie, it seemed like she pooped ALOT! We were constantly chasing her with a booty wipe too. When I tried home remedies(canned pumpkin) although it has been proven effective for firming stools, Hers got worse. My vet put her on flagyl and prescription i/d and it instantly firmed her stools up and seemed like she went less often, so I also would recommend a vet visit. We've since put Mackie on Canidae life stages and have seen incredible results with her coat and overall condition. She hops on all fours and spins in circles to get it too!

[ewestby]

We have Percy scheduled for his first vet visit tomorrow. :) We're bringing a stool sample, so if there are any nasties inside him, he'll soon be rid of them.

[ewestby]

Turns out the loose stools had a very specific cause, or two, to be precise: giardia and coccidia. Fortunately we found the sweetest, most experienced vet right near our home, so we're thrilled. Percy's only been taking the anti-parasitics for two days, but his stools firmed up immediately!

The vet said she thinks doggy daycare would be a great idea after he's had his next set of vaccinations, in mid-November. That'd put him at almost four months. Does that sound like a better age, or is your opinion that six months or older would be best? We want as much information as possible before we make this decision. Also note that I work right near my home, so I can go home for lunch and a midday romp with Percy almost every day. :)

Cheers,
e + k + p

[bulldoggin30]

Dutchie started at 5 months and has loved it ever since!

[imogene]

I work from home, but they still go to daycare twice a month - I love it because they come back exhausted. We started Sam at daycare pretty early- just after his last shots- he was a bit timid at first (but that's his personality) but now he goes and has a great time. Belzie has always been more outgoing and very playful - she used to play the whole time. Last time I took them, I was told she was taking 10 minute power naps, in the quite room, between play sessions:lol: .

[emmitt]

Thanks for asking all of the same questions that I have! I have been feeding Emmitt Innova, I really like it a lot and so does he. California natural is supposed to be great...but they don't make a puppy food. Maybe that doesnt matter after all??? The vet told me 1/2 cup in am 1/2 cup at night (He is 9.2 pounds right now.) He also told me it is one of the most important questions to ask him, how much should I be feeding him now?? I was suprised with how little he is supposed to eat, I often feel he acts hungry. However I am being very strict in this department, becasue I know how bad it is for the dog to let them get overweight. I totally sympathize with the peeing and pooping thing. I agree with the rest of the gang...def close the crate door, and let him wake you when he has to go...or in the early begginings set the alarm. Isn't it so wondeful to have all of these experienced people as resources to us...brandie new frenchie owners. :)

[imogene]

Please remember that feeding guidelines are just that. . . .guidelines. Some dogs need more some need less, which is why it is important to keep an eye on their physical appearance, and weight. You should be easily able to feel their ribs but not see them, and they should be gaining weight not loosing it. When we got Sam he was 13 weeks and 7lbs - I was feeding him home cooked, because the airline lost his food, and he didn't do well on the kibble we tried, plus the stress of coming home brought on a bout of coccidia. . .and the bland diet really helped him. We were feeding him the amount recommended by our vet and in the first week he lost about 3 oz. Once we upped his food by a oz per meal he started gaining and has been gaining steadily since.

Frenchies are hard puppies, they are so stubborn, needy and so hard to house-train. We are constantly making comments like it's a good thing he's/she's cute . . . but once you get through the first couple of months, you forget how stressful it can be to have a puppy and do something silly like bring another one home.:lol:

[ewestby]

Well, the diarrhea has come back with a vengeance: each stool is soupy now, and he had his first bad accident on the carpet. :^/ (Is there a floor-cleaning forum on this board? <smiles weakly>)

We're halfway through the course of medication the vet provided, and as I said in an earlier post, his stools got much better at first, and now they're as bad as they were before he took him in. Is a teaspoon of plain yogurt something else we should try?

On to the crating question: Emmitt ... and Emmitt's companion :) ... your puppy sleeps in the crate in your room? And he doesn't whine incessantly through the night at not being able to cuddle with you? As I understand it, the ideal crating/housetraining scenario is:

1. Calmly put Percy in his crate at bedtime, with *no* bedding in the crate, so he'll be less inclined to soil it.
2. He may bark at first, but being in the same room as us will calm him.
3. Wake up every 2 (3?) hours during the night to take him outside to eliminate.
4. Gradually increase the interval between trips outside. (How long until he's sleeping through the night?)

This is the way to do it? What if he soils the crate? (I assume the answer is clean it and start over, but I need to know if that's right. :) ) It's been a stressful morning -- we're both terribly worried about this recurrence of the diarrhea -- and I just want to do what's best. I haven't slept properly in a week, and I'm not myself. :(

[Boykins]

I'm not Emmitt's owner, but I can tell you what we did with Boykins, just in case that helps you in any way.

Let me first say that we were both very sleep-deprived in those first weeks, and we didn't have a sick puppy. I picked Boykins up in Michigan, and we spent our first few days there with my parents. I returned to Boston after 3 days, and by the time I got home (and survived the flight back without incident), I was a wreck. I remember calling the woman who runs the dog school we go to, bursting into tears, and basically unloading on her for a good 30 minutes. (There's a reason we opted to attend her school. She was just wonderful all the way around.) My heart goes out to you. But it will get better. It might just take a little longer for Percy, esp. since he's a sick little guy.

For the crate: from my perspective, you're pretty much right on. We placed Boykins' crate at the foot of our bed. It just happened to work best in that spot.

We have been lucky that with one single exception, she has not soiled in her crate, so we haven't had to take out her bedding except to wash it. However, I've read many posts that suggest leaving bedding out until the pup has avoided accidents in the crate for a little while.

For the first two weeks or so, we slept with our heads at the foot end of the bed so she could see us. (We covered her crate, but left one end uncovered.) We also left a tiny nightlight on so she'd be able to see if she needed additional reassurances. If she started to whine, we'd shift in our bed so she'd know we were there. I sometimes slept with one arm hanging off the bed so she could smell/see me more easily.

After doing this for a couple of weeks, we transitioned back to normal sleeping positions, and covered her crate completely at bedtime. She seemed to understand at that point that we were there even if she couldn't see us.

During those first few weeks, we were putting Boykins to bed around 11:00 (dinner around 7:30, pushed back from 5:00 at the recommendation of the woman at training school; she also recommended rationing water after a certain point in the evening if that is likely to help). I then set my alarm to go off at 3:00am (!!!), so she'd get a mid-night walk if she didn't wake us on her own. Eventually, I worked on pushing this time back, and now she generally manages to last from 10:30/11:00 until 6:30. (Although the time change last weekend has definitely screwed up her internal clock, no matter how strict we've been about adjusting accordingly.)

We got Boykins at 13 weeks, and I'd say she wasn't completely settled into a nighttime routine and sleeping mostly through the night until 4.5 or 5 months. And if this "fall back" clock setting is any indication, even the smallest thing could throw off a pup's internal clock, so be prepared to make little adjustments if you have to.

Boykins now 7 months, and we're really proud of her progress. But it might take a little time for Percy...

One other thing: we did a lot of cookie treating with Boykins as she was learning the ins/outs of house-breaking. Some people may not wish to go this route, and I totally respect that. However, we found that with a dog so highly motivated by cookies, this worked very well for us. If she went inside, she didn't get a cookie (and would often be a bit worried by our disappointment, which was pointed at ourselves). If she went outside, she did (as well as lots of physical and verbal praise).

I hope this helps!

Good luck!

-sarah and boykins

[citygirl]

I completely sympathize with your diarrhea plight! I know you're getting lots of advice and I'm going to pile on even more for you. My little Lexington arrived with just horrible diarrhea right from the get go. She was miserable and so was I. I turned to a book you providing a home cooked meal to get the dog's diarrhea stabilized. I followed it to the letter and it began working immediately. You boil equal amounts of peeled white potato, peeled sweet potato, a slice of turnip and a couple slices of leek in water until the potatoes are soft. No seasonings! To this, you add diced or torn pieces of chicken without the skin -- just as leanly prepared as possible -- as little fat as possible. Lexi immediately began to improve. She loved the food and, within a day, her poops were beginning to actually take a shape. It took several more days on the diet to move to what could actually be a called a firm stool. Once I got her stablized, I was able to start her on a raw diet. She's been on that now for nine months and is thriving.

[citygirl]

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post regarding sleeping through the night. I got a snuggle puppy for each of my girls and they absolutely loved them. They were stuffed animals with a fully stuffed head and the body was empty so that you could put something that smells like you into the body. They draped themselves over those things each night and were sound asleep with absolutely no fussing - ever! They even come with a little heart shaped device that has an on/off switch so that you can start a heartbeat for them. Mine never used that, but I did give it to a couple with a Boston Terrier puppy that was in our puppy playgroup because their dog was really fussing all night. They said their dog immediately stopped crying and whimpering at night once they put the heartbeat into the crate.

[ewestby]

... Percy's diarrhea is once again gone. Yay. Perhaps our experience Tuesday night was just the final throes of the parasitic infection. We're praying it's gone for good. Oh, and he didn't eat his stools last night, thank heavens. Maybe that was related to the diarrhea too?

Thanks for the advice on the bland diet and the SnugglePuppy! We're going to buy a SnugglePuppy ASAP. Unfortunately they're out of stock on the one that has Percy's coloration. :^>

As far as crating, our experience has been that Percy cries *more* if he can see us while penned or crated. If we're in the other room, he quiets down after about three minutes, but if we crate him while we're watching TV or reading in the same room -- just trying to get him accustomed to it -- he doesn't stop. And he barks rather than crying, as if he's not sad, but rather can't fathom why we're ignoring him. ;^D So long story short: Sarah, your advice sounds impeccable, but I'm concerned that Percy's personality (Percy-nality? ouch) might be different....

A final housetraining question: it appears that Percy wakes up three or four times each night to eliminate in his pen (sadly, he doesn't consistently make use of the WizDog we bought, or the puppy pads around it, preferring the tile floor), yet he doesn't bark until sunrise. Does anyone else in the forum use indoor potty methods such as pads or a tray/litterbox?

[ewestby]

Last night we saw a side of Percy not apparent in the last two weeks: he was an absolute terror. =:^o He was running in circles and barking in his pen when we got home, and he had soiled his crate and ripped up the puppy pads we left down. Running and playing with him for over an hour barely slowed him down. He was also aggressively biting us during play.

My dad had a thought: is he in pain from teething? We noticed his teeth are just now starting to poke through his gums, poor thing. His first experience with pain. :^< Somehow he got a full night's sleep -- we played and ran with him up on the roof deck for another hour before bedtime :) -- and he seemed better this morning, but boy we were spooked by his behavior!

Is this early for teething? Little Percy is 3 months old.

[marycas]

I'm thinking he's finally feeling healthy and this is the normal you are going to get to experience daily from now on :)

It sure cant hurt to assume he is teething and provide a kong or a safe chew toy. And if he's alone for long periods of time, perhaps the radio or TV on a timer to go on and off during that time

It's not unusual, though, for even old dogs to go a little crazy when their owners come home

[ewestby]

We have a Kong and a bone for him to chew on, and he loves both. It was the manic running in circles that confused us!

We leave NPR going softly during the day so he has calming, liberal voices to soothe him. ;) We've just ordered a plush, stuffed mommy dog, complete with artificial heartbeat. And once Percy's old enough, he'll be off to doggy daycare, so he'll be running and playing while we're at work.

Can anyone confirm the "usual" age for teething in frenchies?

And has anyone used pads or another method to train their dogs to eliminate in a specific place indoors?

[Chris&Eti]

I'm unclear how crating would teach him that "waste = bad
Its more about reinforcing that the crate=good. Make sure its small enough (big enough for him to turn around in) and reinforce positive associations with it-feed him in the crate, give him all his treats in the crate. Don't provide opportunities for him to make a mistake while he's in there-no more than one hour for every month of age during the day - he can go longer at night as sleep slows down his bodily functions and its better not to put anything absorbent in the crate. Don't feed or provide water beyond early evening. Then you incrementally increase the length of time that he's in the crate to teach him to hold it in.

Using the crate as a housebreaking tool really requires that you close the door at night and let him out at increasing intervals-and it doesn't take that long for them to learn to make it through the night- Eti was sleeping through the night by the third week he was with me. Learning not to do it at all in the house is a longer process, some frenchies learn quickly (5 months) some take up to a year to be accident free.

Once out of the crate, you need to take him to where he is supposed to relieve himself. I think you are providing too many choices-dogs have a preference for a particular substrate-like paper or grass or leaves. Definitely either wizdog or pads for inside-not both. Usually pads are a temporary measure for urban dwellers because puppies aren't suppose to be outside where adult dogs have been-but once they start going outside, you would remove the pads and they would only ever go outside. Its near impossible to have them understand that both are OK, and you'll have problems when you start taking them to your friend's houses.

If he has accidents, keep a very neutral demeanour, remove him to another room and clean up. Unless you catch him in the act, corrections or negative reactions can confuse him into thinking you are unhappy with him eliminating-in which case he will still continue doing it but secretly.

He was running in circles and barking in his pen when we got home, and he had soiled his crate and ripped up the puppy pads we left down..... He was also aggressively biting us during play....is he in pain from teething?
This sounds like separation anxiety (http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/dog_behavior_tip_sheets/separation_anxiety.html)- you want to manage this so that it doesn't escalate. He's not teething he's exploring the world with his mouth/teeth- you'll need to teach him bite inhibition (http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_BiteInhibition.php)

Hang in there-housebreaking is hell, and the added complication of diahrrea and coprophagia (http://www.petbehaviourcentre.com/us/us_articles/us_poo.htm) doesn't help.

[emmitt]

Actually our bedroom is the only room in the house with carpeting..since we got hime we have designated him to the kitchen, we leave our door open so we can hear him in the crate. For the first week I would set my alarm, I would let him out every 2-3 hours. Very quickly he started to alert me on his own...at first it was every 3 hours..then 4...it is getting longer and longer for the most part. We still have nights where its every 3 hours. Besides not getting a solid 4hours of solid sleep since we got him, I sleep with one eye/ear open the entire night....The second I hear him I spring up out of bed. I sympathize with you on the lack of sleep thing, and not being yourself. (IT WILL GET BETTER, I KNOW IT> The hardest part about the crate training!!!! Let them cry!!! UHHGHGHGHH When I decided to start listening to everyone that was telling me this. I cried the first night...He yelped and howled for over an 1 1/2. I felt like this moment was either going to make or brake the consistency for crate training. I just stuck with it like everyone says. I have to tell you it got better and better every day. He always whimpers just a little bit, but eventually stops. I feel so bad that Percy is sick. It must just add to the stress..and make it so much harder for you. I think this goes beyond the norms of crate training...He can't help it. I am sure you are getting plenty of wise words on what to do from memebers. I believe, at some point, we will sleep again.!!! hang in there. Ughhhh...Emmitt just pooped on my couch.:(

[emmitt]

I have never heard of a snuggle bunny, I think that is great...some people suggested a hot water bottle to sleep with them, as a warm body to cuddle against, I have kept a blanket in with him, So i just wrap it up in his blankie. he snuggles up against it. I didn't do this but people suggested an old clock, a small one that ticks...people say they like the sound of it.

I got into a bad habit of gently putting him in the crate, and waiting for him to fall asleep. Now I am trying to leave him cute little face in there,while he looks up at me.."take me with you"...Like I said, It has gotten better already. :)

[ewestby]

Not much new to report, but here's an update, since you were all so kind and generous with your advice!

We switched (for the final time for a while) to a new food and seem to have found one his tummy can tolerate: Nutro Natural small bites for puppies. His waste is a completely different consistency now, much firmer, and he goes less frequently. Whew. Oh, and he's starting to learn to use his tray during the day ... I'd say he goes there 75% of the time.

His first bath today was an experience! Kevin got wetter than Percy did. ;) But he smells all fresh now. (Percy, I mean. Well, I guess they both do.)

The chewing of table legs, toes, and remote controls is now my chief concern, so things are better than they were last week. :) Bitter apple spray isn't the miracle I'd hoped, since it seems to wear off very quickly. Anyone have other teething/chewing remedies?

[imogene]

The spray didn't work all that well with us - the only difference it made was Belzie stopped chewing and started licking. We didn't even try the spray with Sam.

We kept our pockets full of small toys, nylabones, and stuff that Sam and Belzie were allowed to chew on. Every time one of them went to chew something we verbally corrected them with a "no" and gave them something they were allowed to chew on. Belzie picked it up in a couple of weeks, Sam got it in about 5 weeks. It saved our feet and furniture.:lol:

[ewestby]

Here's another question, related to my earlier ones: will the interval between his visits to the doggy-bathroom naturally get longer as Percy gets older, or do they only potentially get longer, leaving us to train him to wait?

I ask because Percy seems to have learned the opposite, since he gets a treat every time he uses his spiffy tray. He now goes tiny little amounts every 15 minutes, then looks up at us all expectantly! I kid you not, the other day he even squatted into the number 1 position and looked up at us, even though he didn't have to go! What an adorable little swindler. ;)

I know their ability to hold it in increases with age: 1 hour per month old seems to be the norm. But is that something we then have to train?

[Chris&Eti]

He now goes tiny little amounts every 15 minutes, then looks up at us all expectantly! I kid you not, the other day he even squatted into the number 1 position and looked up at us, even though he didn't have to go! What an adorable little swindler. ;)

Eti did the exact same thing-I was pretty impressed at his craftiness. I continued to give treats as reward- only if there was a result- but I reduced the size of the treats ( cutting them into smaller pieces) and also changed them around so they weren't always his favorite (like plain kibble). He would actually then see what I had in my hand and run off if it wasn't to his liking.

Its a little trickier when you have indoor pads and they have free access. They need to be taught to hold it in by asking them to hold it for increasing lengths of time-thats essentially how crate technique works. Can you close off the room where the pads are for controlled increasing periods of time ?

[Boykins]

A lot of the challenges with small puppies is that they just don't have bladders large enough for them to go longer periods of time without having to go. As Percy gets older and his bladder gets larger, he should be able to go longer periods of time without having to peep.

We also ran into the cunning "squat to get a treat" move, something my mother warned me about. (I was too young when we got my childhood dog, Ali, to remember this!) We also watched very closely to see if Boykins was eliminating when she squatted, and rewarded her only when it was obvious she'd done something.

Other than our first nights together, at my parents' house in Michigan, we never used pads with Boykins. I set some out for her when we got home to Boston, but she just played with them like they were some crazy chew toy. (We now have 1 1/2 packages of pads that we'll never use. I guess I should donate them!)

I wonder if it would be safe to try transitioning away from them by not having them out all the time. Would Percy go on the spot where the pads usually sit, or would he feel forced to hold it because there's no pad? Perhaps if you're okay with some accidents in the place where the pad usually sits, and Percy learns that going right on the floor is not rewarded, you can put pads down every once in a while and he gets his reward for going then. Maybe that's a bad idea. Just "thinking out loud," I guess.

Of course, one good thing about all this: Percy is a smart little guy! That might be working against you right now, but eventually, I would bet it''ll be a great thing.

Keep us posted. Hang in there.:)

Oh, and chewing! Boykins is a huge chewer. For the first few months, we worked very hard to make sure we removed opportunities for her to chew on inappropriate things. We had toys strewn about the house so we could constantly "redirect" her to the right things to chew. (Our version of keeping toys in our pockets.) But we moved just about anything small and chewable (remotes, socks, books, magazines, etc.) to places she couldn't get to.

She's a huge fan of her Nylabone toys, and those things can take a lot of punishment!

[marycas]

From the dog's point of view, there is no reason to associate the act of urinating with the treat over associating the squat position or presence in the cat box with it, KWIM?

Its not bad if he has made a close but not accurate association;its just means some refinement is in order!

I personally wouldnt try to go to a next step until he stopped expecting treats for less than the full performance