Is my Puppy ready for raw?

[BecksDad]

Hi there,

My wife and I would like to start our puppy of 4 months (Beckham) on a pre-made raw food diet. Is it safe to start Beckham on a raw food diet at his age?

I'm wondering if any of you have heard of the "Paws-itively Raw" company?

http://www.paws-itivelyrawfoods.com/html/products.html

It's the only pre-made raw food that our local store sells.

Any feedback would be much appreciated!

Take care,

Sean

[gmacleod]

Certainly it is "safe" at 4 months. Dogs are designed to be weaned onto whole natural food, and many breeders do just that - starting at around 3 weeks. At 4 months, your pup should have no trouble whatsoever.

From the information available on the webpage posted, that food looks very good. The only thing I would suggest avoiding is the vegetable mixes. If you feel the need to feed vegetables at all, then it's far more sensible to throw them into a blender and mush them up yourself (at least then they're fresh, and you know how much the dog is getting).

I'd also note that offal appears to be separate from the general mixes. That's fine, but you should bear in mind that offal should make up between 10-20% of everything you feed. That's over time, not necessarily every single meal, of course. But you'd need to purchase a reasonable ration of offal to balance the rest.

[imogene]

It looks like paws-itivelyrawfoods mimic the urban carnivore system, having lots of options as far as meat only - offal only, tripe only, veg only goes even their supplements have similar names.

Urban Carnivore (http://www.urbancarnivore.com/) is also a Canadian base raw food co. We have been feeding Belzie from a Vet prescribed Urban Carnivore Menu for the last four months and she is really doing very well. You may want to check them out and do a price comparison. It is widely available in Ontario you should be able to find a retalier in your area listed on their website.

[BecksDad]

gmacleod & imogene...thanks for your replies!

gmacloed: It looks like there is offal included in each raw meat product...

I'd also note that offal appears to be separate from the general mixes. That's fine, but you should bear in mind that offal should make up between 10-20% of everything you feed. That's over time, not necessarily every single meal, of course. But you'd need to purchase a reasonable ration of offal to balance the rest.

Here's a link to their explanation of how they prepare each raw meat product:

http://www.paws-itivelyrawfoods.com/html/ingred.html

They use a 70-20-10 formula...70% meat/20% veggies/10% Liver, kidney, plus beef or chicken hearts and raw eggs (with ground shell).

gmacloed: Which meat do you recommend we start little Becks with? We have a choice of goat, chicken, beef, lamb pork, venison, turkey, duck, salmon or herring.

Also...how much do we feed our pup each day? Should we get a scale to measure out the servings?

Thanks for all your help!

Sean (Beckham's Dad) :D

[imogene]

You missed Gwyneth's point about it being better to feed meat only premixes -Dog don't really need veg anyway, but some is okay if you feel the need for them to have it. Having the meat separate from the veg means you can better control the amount and type and quality of the fruit and veg if you whiz it yourself in the food processor.

The only meat only mix containing organ meats I saw on their website were the feline meats.

We use a combination of Urban Carnivore's Fruit and Veg Patties, and home whizzed fruit and veg depending on what I have in the fridge or freezer any given day. We also started her on buffalo/bison and venison (with Amore raw), and introduced her to chicken, beef, duck, and lamb once we switched her to Urban Carnivore. She is allergic to salmon and salmon oil - but loves salmon free cold fish oil.

I use a scale twice a day to measure out Belzie's portion. For puppies feed them 2-3% of the weight you expect them to be when they are full grown). We expected Belzie to be about 22 lbs and started her on 6 oz at a 70:30 ratio of meat to veg . She is now gets 5 oz each meal at a ratio of 75:25 meat to veg. She also gets 2 meals a week that is 70:30 offal to green tripe. She also gets recreational bones 2-3 times per week. We are pretty strict with her 5 oz - she started to get pretty chubby from 10-11 months, and looks great now at her stable 20.5 lbs.

Anyway I hope this helps. I was quite overwhelmed with the whole concept and got great advice and great support from this forum:) Best of luck to you too

[gmacleod]

Mmmm. Yes, I have to say, I'm not a fan of mixes that contain vegetables. There are several reasons for that. One is that I think the amount of vegetable matter is just plain excessive. 20% is a lot (I'm generally of the view that about 5% is more appropriate). And I also think only 10% offal is inadequate. LOL - so it would be nice if they'd reverse those!

But notwithstanding the proportions that I'd prefer to see (there are alternative views on how much vegetable matter is appropriate - 20% would be on the upper limit of any mainstream raw feeding theories, but it is at that limit, not above it), there are other good reasons for not feeding a mix like that.

The biggest problem is that you actually cannot know what your dog is eating. What if your dog happens to be allergic to (say) celery? Not only can you never discover that celery is the problem, but you cannot even know if it's present in the food. So if your dog mysteriously has a problem with the beef mix, you might conclude that he has a problem with beef. But it might not be the beef - but one of the unknown vegetables in there. And those vegetables vary too - so next time the offending item might show up in your turkey mix. So you end mistakenly concluding the dog can't eat turkey either. See the problem?

In general - and for precisely the reason above - it is recomended that when you start out on raw feeding, you feed a single food item for the first couple of weeks. "Single" means single. Like chicken only. That can include chicken offal (but not offal from any other animal). And it must not have fruit or vegetables of any description. Once the dog is settled on that meat, and it is clear that he has no problems with it, then you introduce another single food item. That might be another meat. Or it can be a single vegetable. But you need to do it single item by single item to discover what (if anything) your dog cannot consume. Eventually, you should end with a good long list of things that your dog can happily consume - and possibly a second list of things never to feed (because they don't agree with the dog, or he simply will not eat them - it's a heck of a shame to waste an entire meat mix because the dog cannot stand the taste of beans LOL).

In less important reasoning, vegetables that you puree yourself fresh are better than ones that have been frozen anyway. I'm willing to bet they'd be better quality in the first place ;) and throwing a small amount of whatever vegetables you're preparing for your own dinner into a blender for the dog is really not onerous. And if you happen to find that cruciferous vegetables like brocolli, cabbage and cauliflower give your dog horrendous gas (as is commonly the case), well, you might want to avoid those also. Likewise, vegetables of the nightshade family are not good for arthritis sufferers. Your dog probably doesn't have arthritis, of course - but you get the point. At least you have control of what the dog consumes if you're doing your own ;)

So that's something to think about.

Anyway, beyond my particular views on vegetables, I think the brand looks pretty good. In your position, I have to say that I'd personally be purchasing their plain meat/bone mixes, offal and RMBs. AND I'd also consider their feline mixes (I'm not bothered by which species they put on the label LOL - just what's in the food). The only question I'd have about the feline mixes is whether or not they contain bone - if they do, I'd buy it.

[BecksDad]

Thanks for all of the helpful info!

This might be a silly question but how do you know if your dog is having an allergy to certain foods? Is it something very obvious? Are there particular signs to look for?

[gmacleod]

Well, it depends a lot on the individual. Most allergies present symptoms such as red itchy feet and skin. Hand in hand with that tends to come joys such as ear infections.

In a few cases, you can be instantly and obviously allergic to something. But the reality of allergies is that they're most commonly things that build up over time and with constant exposure (allergies being an abnormal response of the immune system to a perceived allergen). The fastest/surest way to develop an allergy to chicken, for example, is to consume it every single day for an extended period. That's a major reason why you (and your dog) shouldn't eat the same thing all the time for long periods (ie. variety is important).

That makes it sound as though you're never going to find out if your dog is allergic to something. That's not really the case. You can usually get a reasonable idea whether something is going to be a problem by feeding it for about a week, and after that, avoiding feeding any particular thing on a constant basis.

And, of course, not all food problems are going to be allergies anyway. Other intolerances might mean that your dog gets an upset tummy (vomitting, loose stools, etc) from (say) lamb. Or some other meat. And in that case, you might have to strike that meat from the menu, or alternatively feed it only occassionally (it might be something the dog can handle for one meal, but not for three in a row).

Lastly, there may be things that your dog just plain can't stand the taste of. Some won't eat kidney. Some won't eat fish. Some won't eat particular vegetables (LOL - just like kids). In some cases, you can persuade them by "hiding" small amounts of the disliked item in with other food - but in others, the presence of the merest amount means the whole meal is going to be rejected. Really, it's only through experimentation with individual food items that you're going to find all that out. Sounds hideously annoying - but it's not as annoying as having an entire mix go to waste because the dog doesn't like celery ;) And fortunately, most don't have a hugely long list of "won't eat's".

[BecksDad]

Thanks for all your help on this gmacloed! My wife and I really appreciate the time you've put into your detailed posts to help us out.

The Paws-itively Raw is the only brand that our local store carries. We can, however, hop on the subway and go to Global Pet Foods if we need to. They carry quite a few different brands of pre-made raw...only one brand appears on the WDJ List of approved pre-made raw foods you posted at the top of the raw feeding section. The brand is Amore Pet Foods. They have quite a large selection of pre-made raw:

Beef and Veggies (meal);
Buffalo - Ground Meat (meat);
Buffalo and Veggies (meal);
Buffalo Bones (bones);
Chicken - Ground Meat (meat);
Chicken - Necks (bones);
Chicken - Wings (bones);
Chicken and Veggie (meal);
Chicken frames (bones);
Chicken, Wild Salmon, and Veggie (meal);
Ostrich - Ground Meat (meat);
Ostrich and Veggie (meal);
Ostrich or Emu Bones (bones);
Quail - Whole (bones);
Shadow's No-Sodium Chicken Broth (soup);
Turkey and Veggie (meal)

The company's website is - http://www.amorepetfoods.com/ Would you recommend this over the paw-itively raw brand that I started the thread with? Which items would you start with?

Thanks again for all your help!

Sean

[gmacleod]

Well, from the information they put on their websites, you know - both brands look perfectly good. Perhaps the Amoré may be a little better, but if convenience is important, you can certainly buy some stuff from paws-itively Raw. I'd just suggest that when you're first starting out on raw, that you should choose to feed RMBs or ground mixes that do not contain any vegetables.

Pick one - let's say chicken, just because it's the most common (but you can equally choose something else if it suits you). So, it would be appropriate to feed things like ground chicken, chicken necks, chicken frames, chicken portions and chicken offal - or any combination of that - for the first couple of weeks. That's "one meat".

If your dog is doing well on that, then you'd pick the next item to introduce. This time maybe it's beef. So again, ground beef, beef offal and any small whole beef RMBs you choose (eg. small ribs). Then on to the next meat, and so on.

After you've got two or three meats introduced happily, you might decide it's time to introduce vegetables. And the best way to do that is one by one. Just so you can know if there are any problems.

And, incidentally, if you do want to feed mixes with vegetables at a later date - then it would make sense to test (one by one) the range of vegetables that the manufacturer includes ;) And if your dog has no problems with any of them, then you'd know you could safely feed those mixes. That's slightly off topic, but worth consideration ;)

Anyway, getting finally to the question you asked (LOL!!), I think both foods look quite good. It's just that in the initial stages, you'd be better off buying the things without vegetables.

So, from the paws-itively raw lineup, suitable things to buy (depending on which meat you're feeding first) are the ground basics chicken, beef and tripe (which is probably beef tripe, so can be fed along with ground beef). Also the chicken necks and backs from the RMB line.

You'd need to check whether or not their offal is a mix from different animals, but assuming that it isn't (ie. is all beef offal, or all chicken offal, etc), then that's also something that can be fed early.

That would cover two meats, so keep you going for a good three weeks or so :)

For the next meats to introduce though, paws-itively don't seem to have anything beyond chicken and beef that doesn't have vegetables included. So once you've got those two satisfactorily introduced, you'd need to look further afield for alternative meats (or else test out all those vegetables).

And in that case, the Amoré looks like a good option. There you can get ground Buffalo (meat/bone/offal), Ostrich (meat/bone/offal), and whole quail. Obviously, they do chicken also - so that's an option from either supplier.

Between the two, you've got a decent range of different meats there :)

Incidentally, once you DO have all those meats and the individual vegetables introduced to your dog - and assuming that there are no problems with any of the vegetables - then it isn't going to hurt to include some of the meat/vegetable mixes in the diet. I just wouldn't feed those daily since I think it's an excessive amount of vegetable matter. Alternated with a non-vegetable mix though could be fine.

[BecksDad]

gmacloed...you rock! :D

Thank you soooooo much for all your help. I think that we're going to start little Becks on the Paws-itively Raw Ground Chicken (with bone) mix.

I'm going to buy a 1lb container first and feed Beckham 4 ounces a day of raw (in the morning) and 3/4 of a cup of kibble (wellness puppy) at night.

I'll probably do this for four days (until the 1lb container is done) and then, if Beckham is having no trouble with the raw, I'll feed him raw in the morning & evening for a total of 8 ounces a day. After maybe two weeks of the ground chicken mix we'll start introducing him to other meats and offal slowly.

How does that sound?

Again, I can't thank you enough for your informative posts and guidance on this matter.

Sean

[gmacleod]

Sounds perfect to me :) Good luck!

[imogene]

:) When you by your raw keep in mind that their are 16 oz in 1lb so you may want to start off with more than one 1lb - provided you have room in your freezer.

When I was using Amore with Belzie the dog packages were 1 lbs. Amore is a great product, just make sure you use it properly. You may also want to keep track of how much your puppy weighs when you start and through out his development. At 4 months he has a lot of growing to do and it is so important to make sure he is getting the right kinds of foods and enough of them. If he stops gaining and starts loosing you know for sure that he is not getting enough

My only concern with your plan is that 8 ounces a day is not going to be enough for a growing puppy. Belzie weighs 20 lbs and is doing well on 10 oz a day (and recreational bones 2-3 times a week ,as well as occasional treats) now that she is not have major growth spurts - but until 11 months we had her on 12 oz a day as we expected her to be around 22 + at full growth.

Have you met your boy's parents - do you have an idea of how big he will be grown up? Males average 24-28 lbs. 3% of 28 lbs is 13.44 (per day)for 24 lb it would be 11.5 oz (per day)

I was lucky to find a holistic vet to help me with Belzie's diet - starting raw can be quite overwhelming, but after a few months is starts to make sense. Lots of luck:)

[Chris&Eti]

Sean

I wanted to concur with a couple of points made here- I agree with Judy 3 times a day until he's 6 months old then twice a day is the general rule of thumb for how many times a day to feed. I also agree with Tracy that 8 oz may be too little, 2-3% of final anticipated body weight per day is the general guide for raw. Eti is just under 24 lbs at 2 yrs old and eats 10 oz a day ( just over 2.5% of total body weight ). I thought he might end up a little bigger so was feeding him about 11.5 oz when he started at around 5 months and had to to wean it back down to 10 ozs when he stopped really growing at around 10 months. However starting with 8 ozs for the first few days is not a bad idea- a raw diet is much richer and higher in protein so to take it slowly to begin with might work well.

You may also be better off going straight into feeding all raw without an evening kibble meal. Grain based kibble requires a completely different enzyme/digestive environment than raw meat and bones. The time it takes to digest the food is also different-Raw food takes about 5-6 hours to process, cooked food 8-9, kibble(grain based) up to 16 hours. You probably have a better chance of avoiding any digestion problems by eliminating the kibble altogether. In most cases dogs that are switched to raw diets will refuse to eat kibble after anyway- so be prepared for Beck making that decision for you.

Feeding a raw diet also requires some thought into what you give for treats in between meals. If you give a grain based treat 2 hours after a raw meal- you put the raw meal on the grain based digestion schedule of 16 hours. Everything stays in the system much longer than it should and intereferes with the digestion process. I give Eti
meat (dried liver,chicken jerky) or fruit (apple, banana) or grain free kibble (innova evo) for treats.

All the best with the transition.

[BecksDad]

Thanks for all your feedback.

I've ordered a couple pounds of a Ground Chicken (with bone) mix and will start feeding Beckham two 4oz meals a day for the first few days (starting Friday), and then increase it to around 5 or 5.5oz meals.

Unfortunately, our work schedules make it hard for us to feed Beckham three times a day.

I'll update everyone on his progress once we start his new diet tomorrow.

Take care and thanks again!

Sean

[BecksDad]

Ok guys, Beckham just ate his food in record timing!! Seriously, he was still licking the bowl long after it was gone. Nice to see he likes the raw! It was so awesome to watch him enjoy his food. Usually we have to encourage him to eat, even give him some out of our hands.

[SadPandas]

Yeah, isn't it wonderful to see them enjoy it so much!! :lol: It used to only take Orson about 40 seconds to finish a meal!! And he still is very happy to eat his food! Raw is great and I am glad that your little Beckham is enjoying it! appicon

[BecksDad]

Two 4oz meals on day one of feeding raw and so far so good!

No vomiting, no signs of any negative response to the raw yet. He had very loose stools for the last two weeks and tonight it finally firmed up a bit! I hope it was because of the change in his diet...we'll see how he does tomorrow!

Thanks again for all your feedback everyone! We'll update Beckham's progress...

BecksDad