barf plus rmb's good enough?

[M&M]

Learning about raw feeding has been something of a journey that has left me feeling dazed. First I learned that kibble is bad and home-cooking the way to go. Then I learned that grains are bad and raw is good--not home-cooking. Then I read the Second Chance Ranch website that attacks raw--and became a bit concerned about the dangers of raw. Then I found the Many Myths of Raw Feading site which satisfactorily rebutted the Second Chance Ranch site, but also attacked barf in the name of the prey model diet (raw meaty bones and organ meats only, no pre-prepared frozen raw or vegetables). The more I read the more extreme the feeding options get!

Whatever I end up deciding, I want to get my 11-week old puppy off of Nutro Chicken and Rice as soon as possible, but ... reading so much about raw feeding, I would feel almost irresponsible feeding Chou-chou any kind of kibble. The fact is I'm in Japan and my options are fairly limited. I happen to have a butcher friend, where I might be able to get some rmb's, and of course fresh whole fish is plentiful, but I doubt I could gather up the variety necessary for a truly healthy prey model diet. It's mostly beef at my friend's shop I think, but I've yet to ask what he could possibly do for us.

The only pre-prepared frozen barf options I have are Nature's Variety and a Japanese brand called Natural Harvest, both of which I could order online. But...I've heard that Nature's Variety has too much ground bone in it, I think. And then prey model diet supporters would have me reject Nature's Variety because it has vegetables in it (among other reasons). They say that since dogs can't digest vegetables and dogs can get all the nutrition they need from the prey model diet of rbms and organ meats I should do without vegetables or suppliments of any kind in my dog food.

Would you guys recommend I try to put together some kind of prey model diet? Maybe a mix of beef and chicken RMB's and organ meats with some whole fish thrown in? Or should I go ahead and try the Nature's Variety Raw Frozen on my puppy and add some RMB's a few times a week? I'm a little uneasy about trying out the Natural Harvest brand just because it's an unknown. Sorry about another long-winded post, but looking forward to hearing from you.

[gmacleod]

Relax ;)

I tend to think that many raw feeders get carried away on the details, insistent even, that theirs is the only way to feed - and manage to completely overlook the fact that all raw feeders agree on 95% of theory (so they're really fighting over the little details), and that since both sides can point to spectacularly healthy dogs as "proof" that they're right, the chances are that it actually doesn't even matter either way... ;)

Pretty much everyone agrees that the basis of the dogs diet needs to be raw meat/bones/offal. There's little argument there. And this is the major part of what you're going to feed however you choose to do it.

For the minor part of the diet, some people believe that dogs should have some amount of vegetable matter, others don't. Who's right, and does it matter anyway? Well, it all really comes down to whether or not you believe that dogs evolved eating the stomach contents of prey. Did they consume, or did they let it spill? If you think they probably ate it, then you'll probably choose to feed vegetables. And if you think they more likely let it spill, then you probably won't bother.

LOL - that's really what all the fuss is about. Oh - and some people will scream in horror about feeding ground meat too, rather than whole portions.

For myself, I think that it is most likely that dogs would consume small prey like mice and rats whole - including any stomach contents. Larger prey items I think would have their stomach contents spilled (as you see is the case with most wild dogs and other predators). Adding to my belief there is the dog's complete lack of digestive enzymes capable of breaking down the cellulose walls of plant material. A predator doesn't wait a few hours to give his prey time to digest their last meal so that he can consume the stomach contents properly ;) LOL - no, they take their opportunities where they arise. And if dogs had evolved consuming large quantities of vegetable material from the stomachs of their prey, they would also have developed the digestive enzymes necessary to digest it. That is my opinion anyway - you're quite free to disagree :) And in accordance with that opinion, I feed only a small amount of vegetable matter. Perhaps 5% of the total diet (sometimes more, sometimes less).

But I'd reiterate the point made earlier - I really don't think it matters greatly either way. Both the pro-veggie groups and the anti-veggie groups are able to point to spectacularly healthy dogs over very long periods of time. That's proof enough for me that dogs don't require to be fed vegetables - and that you're not going to kill your dog with carrots either, if you choose to feed them. So I'd say that it is entirely optional.

Anyway - to answer your actual question (finally, LOL) I think your idea of feeding some pre-made raw and some whole portions is a good one. You're really covering the best of all worlds that way. And you get a lot of the convenience factor of pre-made too.

My general opinion of Nature's Variety is that it contains an excessive amount of vegetable matter. But you're solving that problem, by mixing it or alternating it with whole RMBs. You're also getting past the biggest criticism of pre-made - which is that the dog gets no chewing exercise or teeth cleaning since the food is pre-ground.

It wouldn't hurt (my opinion again) to add extra offal to the meals here too. I get the impression that Nature's Variety puts more emphasis on vegetables than on offal - wheras I'd go the other way. Offal is the most nutritious part of a carcass (needs to be a good range of different organs though - you can't go overboard on any particular one, especially liver).

Well, I'm not sure exactly how helpful that is to you. But raw feeding is something that is nothing if not flexible. However you choose to do it, it's a far better option for your dog than processed foods.

Incidentally - there is a free book download on raw feeding available that you might find useful. See this thread: http://www.bulldogworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2251

[M&M]

Thank you so much!!!:) I'm sure you can tell by the length of my first few messages just how anxious I've been lately. And it's a huge relief to here from someone I really respect on the matter. You're so right about the two diets being 95% the same. In fact, I saw that thread to Work Wonders yesterday and read/skimmed it before posting. I think I'll go ahead and order my first batch of Nature's Variety and ask my friend about those RMB's quicklike.:) The only question is what to do with the rest of that Nutro!:rolleyes:

[gmacleod]

LOL - I'm sure a shelter would appreciate the remains of the Nutro ;)

Definitely take a look at that book download. I've skimmed it myself now, and it looks pretty good. The author (Dr Lonsdale) has managed to avoid the activist language of some of his other publications, so it's an easy read. He's not a pro-veggie raw feeder, but he's not as anti as some of the whole prey modellers (irrespective that they base their theory on a lot of his work).

I really think that feeding raw by any means is much better than feeding processed food. And as you get more comfortable with it, and see what your dog responds well to and what he doesn't, no doubt you'll end leaning toward one or other viewpoint (or just somewhere in the middle). But whichever way you go, raw feeding is nothing if not flexible and your dog will be healthier for it ;)