Fromm's Raw vs. Nature's Variety

[wiltonyeh]

Ok, it's been over a year and we are finally getting our frenchie in a few weeks! Reading this board over the past year has helped me get a better understanding of a frenchie's unique needs. My wife and I are trying to make sure that we have everything in order and I had one question regarding food.

Our local pet store sells Nature's Variety Raw which I know some people have fed without any problems. Our local pet store can also special order Fromm's Raw and BRAVO Raw.

I'm trying to determine if I should special order BRAVO/Fromms or if we should feed Nature's Variety. I was wondering if someone could please help me differentiate these three products or even recommend one.

Thanks.

[gmacleod]

I took a look at Fromms' website, and I notice that their raw food has disappeared... makes me wonder whether it still exists, or if it does, whether they plan for that to continue long term. So that's something you might want to find out before considering that food ;)

Between Bravo and Nature's Variety, I'd take the Bravo personally. The thing I have against NV is that there are no veggie-free mixes available, and their mixes look a bit vegetable-heavy to me. If you dog happens to have a problem with something (eg. brocolli) you've really no way of knowing that it was brocolli causing that problem... The extremely low fat and EFA content also concerns me a bit (doesn't match what you'd expect to see from ground whole meat portions, so I worry a little about the quality of what they're using).

Bravo, on the other hand, offers mixes both with and without veggies. The range of available meats is far greater, and you have the option of whole bones too. It looks to me to be the superior product here.

[wiltonyeh]

Thanks Gmacleod...you are very helpful as always.

[wiltonyeh]

gmacleod,

I'm leaning towards Bravo now and think I will special order it. I just wish they had more variety in their medallions. I have a few more questions...is a food with too much fat bad for dogs like it is for humans? Most of the Bravo Blends have more than 15% fat..especially the pork and beef which are at 27% and 24%. This seems high to me but then again, my knowledge of nutrition is from a human's perspective. I'm worried about the long term effects of feeding such a fatty diet. Also, I hear about the benefits of Omega-3. Is this found in the BRAVO blends or should I add it as a supplement?

You are right that it is odd that all of nature's variety's raw food have around the same protein & fat characteristics. I actually saved a link to Fromm's raw and noticed that the protein & fat levels are the same for their raw frozen foods as well. Any idea why this would happen? Although I won't go with Fromm's, I've included a link to Fromm's frozen below for your reference.

http://www.frommfamily.com/products_fourstarraw.asp

[gmacleod]

Yes, I think 27% is extremely high - and personally I would not feed that. They must be using straight fat to get it up there (or else they've made an error on their website, giving the DMB fat content instead of the WMB one - though I think that's unlikely). That's another reason I prefer the basics range - it appears to be just ground meat portions and should not have a fat content anything like that high. Since the nutritional breakdown of the basics range isn't published on the website (or at least, not that I find), I'd be inclined to email them to ask ;)

I'd note also that you're looking at wet matter basis percentages there. Once that's converted to a dry matter basis, that 27% fat content in the pork blend is actually 56.7% DMB. The 24% fat content of the lamb blend is actually 63% DMB. That's entirely inappropriate.

The DMB fat content of your average whole bunny, incidentally, which is an appropriate-sized natural prey item for a dog is 20-22% according to the nutritional breakdown given by Dr Tom Lonsdale in his bood "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health". That tallies well with similar breakdowns given by other authors for raw diets. THAT is what you should be aiming for in a raw diet - but up to around 30-35% is probably OK. And protein content in the 45-55% range.

The DMB fat content of the chicken blend, incidentally, is 32%; 23.7% for the turkey blend and 51.8% for the beef.

[wiltonyeh]

Ok...I've sent an email requesting the information on their Basics line. I'll post what they come back with. Hopefully, the fat content will be a bit lower and I'll be able to make a decision then.

[gmacleod]

Yes, hopefully so. It will be interesting to know, anyway :)

[franp]

Ok...I've sent an email requesting the information on their Basics line. I'll post what they come back with. Hopefully, the fat content will be a bit lower and I'll be able to make a decision then.

I use Bravo Basics.. If you call them(there is an 800# on the website; they are more than happy to answer all questions...Like the fat content of each different type of meat..I did that when Dari started to gain weight; they told me the fat content of the lamb (highest of all the meat) vs the turkey etc..

If you use the rolls of meat, you can get a much better selection than in the medallions..and a significant savings as well..Just get a hacksaw to cut the rolls...leave the roll out about 20 minutes and you can cut right thru it..

FYI Frenchies are known to get attacks of pancreatitis.. So being careful of fat (like the skin of the turkey) is VERY important...Keeping fat low for that reason as well as weight for orthopedics and breathing is essential to the health of our breed..

[wiltonyeh]

Here is a reply from Bravo regarding their blends line...they didn't send me anything on the Basics so I replied requesting it again. Interesting that it's different from the website...also, the fat in the beef blend is dramatically lower. I asked if this was an error on the website.

per 1 lb Lamb Beef Chicken Turkey
Nutrient Units
Moisture % 61.30 74.52 70.38 75.58
DM % 38.70 25.48 29.62 24.42
Ash % 2.90 4.95 3.41 3.58
Fiber % 0.30 0.4 0.2 0.5
Crude Fat% 23.63 6.17 8.32 6.39
Protein % 11.95 13.96 14.24 13.53
Arginine % 0.59 0.93 0.97 0.92
Calcium % 0.62 1.08 0.96 1.12
Chloride % 0.09 0.15 0.09 .08
Choline mg/kg 747 880 489 413
Copper mg/kg 3.40 3.5 <2 <2
Crude fat % 23.53 6.17 8.32 6.39
Folic Acid mg/kg 0.142 0.0536 0.156 0.149
Histidine % 0.270 0.31 0.42 0.3
Iodine mg/kg 0.101 0.419 0.191 <0.100
Iron mg/kg 15 23 19 13
Isoleucine% 0.40 0.49 0.59 0.51
Leucine % 0.710 0.97 1.02 0.89
Linoleic % 1.06 0.2 1.38 0.52
Lysine, Total% 0.71 0.99 1.11 0.99
Magnesium% 0.023 0.036 0.038 0.035
Manganesemg/kg 0.710 <0.5 <0.5 22
Met + Cys% 0.32 0.4 0.52 0.46
Niacin mg/kg 32.10 24.9 60 6.12
Pantothenic Acid mg/kg 5.76 23.5 21.3 9.82
Phenylalanine% 0.36 0.54 0.56 0.51
Phosphorus% 0.38 0.65 0.6 0.64
Potassium% 0.16 0.22 0.23 0.19
Protein % 11.95 13.96 14.24 13.53
Vitamin B6mg/kg 0.592 1.13 2.53 0.878
Vit B2 – Riboflavin mg/kg 4.93 5.59 3.01 2.71
Selenium mg/kg 0.185 0.17 0.23 0.15
Sodium % 0.087 0.013 0.079 0.075
Vit B1 – Thiamine mg/kg 0.686 0.821 1.55 0.465
Threonine% 0.360 0.52 0.58 0.52
Tryptophan% 0.100 0.15 0.16 0.13
Valine % 0.490 0.63 0.67 0.58
Vit A True Retinol IU/kg 8160 12100 9610 2340
Vit D by HPLC IU/kg 110 <200 772 818
Vitamin E IU/kg 17.8 6.44 18.4 <6.60
Vitamin B12 mg/kg 0.065 0.0827 0.0324
Zinc mg/kg 18 16 15 24
Alanine % 0.660 0.98 0.93 0.88
Aspartic Acid% 1. 1.16 1.29 1.16
Cystine % 0.120 0.15 0.17 0.15
Methionine% 0.20 0.25 0.35 0.31
Glutamic Acid% 1.360 1.82 2.02 1.9
Glycine % .750 1.28 1.07 1.11
Proline % .550 0.9 0.76 0.78
Serine % .320 0.52 0.5 0.48
Tyrosine % .270 0.38 0.42 0.38

[wiltonyeh]

Ok, that table looked much different in the preview. Let me know if you can make sense of it. If not, I'll try to post it again.

[gmacleod]

VERY interesting that it's different. Mind you, what is on their website is astronomically high!

For info, on a dry matter basis, the fat content per the above now works out at:
Beef blend 24.2% DMB (fine)
Chicken blend 28.1% (also fine)
Turkey blend 26.2% (fine)
Lamb blend 61% DMB (hard to believe)

With the exception of the lamb blend (and I think something must be wrong there!), that is all OK.

It will be interesting to know the reason it's different to what's on the website (somebody typed wrong? LOL), and also what the figures are for the basics range.

[wiltonyeh]

The updated numbers are a bit more reassuring. I was thinking that my frenchie would have a heart attack and triple bypass by the age of 1 with the initial fat numbers. I'm going to ask about the lamb because for most of the meats, the protein % to fat % is about 2:1. However, for lamb, it's the other way...the ratio is 1:2. I'll post the Basics information once I receive it.

Lamb Beef Chicken Turkey
23.63 6.17 8.32 6.39 Fat %
38.7 25.48 29.62 24.42 DM%

61.1% 24.2% 28.1% 26.2% Fat DMB

11.95 13.96 14.24 13.53 Protein %
38.7 25.48 29.62 24.42 DM%

30.9% 54.8% 48.1% 55.4% Protein DMB