Conflicting Info Re: Raw?

[Mpup]

Hi - O.K. We took the plunge and switched Molly to raw appicon (too much wasted money in un-eaten kibble and way too much water consumption with the kibble). I asked a lot of questions and read most of the posts re: raw on this site - still, I received conflicting information from a few sources. Here are the items still confusing me:

1) Do I need to have vegetables added or not? I went with the pre-packaged, frozen, chicken (with bones and organs) and vegetables mixed in. Buy this is more expensive, so if she doesn't need them, I will just get the meat, bones, organ mix next time.

2) Do I need to add an oil supplement? Vitamin supplements? I was told yes, and bought a Salmon Oil to mix in with the raw.

3) I have had the advice to mix a bit of her old kibble, just a tiny bit, in with the Raw for the first while or some soft food, but I was told by a different source that she can't have kibble and raw at the same time :confused:

4) She is finally eating like a champ! But yesterday morning she did throw up a bit - not food, kind of a greyish liquid - but she seems healthy and happy otherwise. The poops have turned dark - like blackish. Is this normal? They have been a bit soft too.

5) The amounts seem so small. A 3 oz portion twice a day? Does this seem right for her - I think she is around 18 lbs.

Thanks for any input that might help me answer my last few questions.

[Mpup]

oops. one more thing.....has anyone heard of Natural Instincts? This is the brand of pre-packaged raw we've started. Thx.

[imogene]

We decided last night to switch Belzie to Raw so I love that you started this post. We're feeling a bit blind right now. There is so much raw feeding information available Which is why we decided on premade frozen. We decided last minute to do this and the only brand we could find was Amore (http://www.amorepetfoods.com). According to their website you should be feeding your dog based 2-3% of their body weight per day, but puppies can be fed as much as 10% and then gradually adjusted to 2-3%. I was browsing through the threads and found it listed on the WDJ 2006 list of recomended raw foods (http://www.bulldogworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2212). So I am feeling a bit better about our choice.

Someone recomended to me to pick an amount of food and adjust by adding more or less depending on if they gain or lose weight.

At 7.75 months Belzie is 18.5 lb so we have decided to feed her 8 ounces 2x a day and gradually bring her down to 2-3% over the next 4 months. She is still growing and I want to make sure she gets all the nutrition she needs especially in the next month and a bit. I am still adding plain yoghurt and flax, olive or salmon oil and a dash of apple cider vinegar to her food - I have never seen her eat her food so well - I usually have to keep reminding her to "go eat".

[Mpup]

Glad it is not just me that feels a little lost. I know it is not supposed to be rocket science, but I guess because the pre-made frozen comes in a larger size pack and I don't have the right measuring tools, I'm just kind of guessing at the portion size..... I think I'm under feeding her as she is 10 months and high energy. She has lost weight recently too because she would not eat kibble.

We live in your area and I found the Natural Instincts at a near-by Pet Store that sells quality brands and products - but I don't know very much about it. Does the Amore have vegetables mixed in?

I never thought I would be so happy over something as silly as watching my dog eat!! But I am. I just stare in wonder as she licks the bowl clean after 6 months of watching her turn her nose up at kibble and coaxing her to eat.:lol:

[slakker]

We bought the one with vegetables mixed in, but they do sell the ones without. I suppose they figure some people would save some cash by supplimnenting veggies on their own. We thought about it, then the convenience factor kicked in...

I would really recommend buying a little kitchen scale. It's really handy and you won't have to guess on the portion sizes.

[LNsBeatles]

I never thought I would be so happy over something as silly as watching my dog eat!! But I am. I just stare in wonder as she licks the bowl clean after 6 months of watching her turn her nose up at kibble and coaxing her to eat.:lol:

I feel exactly the same way! Louis came with Royal Canin from his breeder and just never seemed that enthused about eating. He would eat it if the kibble was left in his bowl long enough but did not run to his bowl for meals.

I switched him to Nature's Variety -- another prepackaged raw -- mainly due to my own home situation: I live in an open plan loft apartment with a tiny freezer and almost no counter space. I was concerned about how I was going to handle the chopping, grinding, and storing so the prepackaged works well for me. I do supplement with RMBs: usually cut up whole chicken, beef marrow bones, etc.

It is so wonderful to see Louis so excited about eating! appicon He practically crawls up my leg during meal times. I love it -- he looks great too. Last week he weighed 15.6 lbs -- he's about 5 and a half months now.

I had similar issues with amount, I ended up just sort of eyeballing it. For growing puppies, Nature's Variety suggested 8-12 oz per day, based on Louis projected weight. But it just seemed like a LOT of food for him. Plus he kind of started to look a little chunky. I ended up cutting him back to 2 small medallions in the morning, 3 small medallions at night plus some extra chicken pieces. I also rotate some additional supplements: apple cider vinegar, yogurt, cottage cheese and an oil mix.

I'm anxious to hear what others have to say about this!

[gmacleod]

1) Do I need to have vegetables added or not? I went with the pre-packaged, frozen, chicken (with bones and organs) and vegetables mixed in. Buy this is more expensive, so if she doesn't need them, I will just get the meat, bones, organ mix next time.
I prefer the mixes without vegetables. That is for several reasons: first, the mixes with vegetables always appear to contain and excessive amount of vegetables. I don't believe veggies should make up more than about 5-10% of the diet (and many people feed none at all) but most pre-made mixes with vegetables appear to contain a heck of a lot more than that. They're usually also light on offal content - and that's a great deal more important than vegetables. Second, they contain a wide range of different vegetables and there's no way for you to sort out which ones are causing a problem if the dog has a problem. And third, I think fresh pureed vegetables beat the heck out of ones that have been frozen (true when it's human food too) - why bother to feed it when most of the nutrients have been lost anyway? In short, if you want to add vegetables, I think it's far better to add your own fresh. Throwing half a carrot, some spinach and some beans (or whatever you're preparing for your own dinner) into a blender a couple of times a week is hardly onerous.

2) Do I need to add an oil supplement? Vitamin supplements? I was told yes, and bought a Salmon Oil to mix in with the raw.
If you're feeding a balanced diet, there's no need to supplement. Fish oil (or flaxseed, olive, sunflower oils) can be a nice addition if you're not feeding any fish in the diet though. And it's a good source of Omega 3/6 EFAs.

3) I have had the advice to mix a bit of her old kibble, just a tiny bit, in with the Raw for the first while or some soft food, but I was told by a different source that she can't have kibble and raw at the same time :confused:
Advice to mix raw with kibble is fairly unusual - and not really a good idea. The problem with mixing raw and kibble together is that they're digested at vastly different rates. Kibble takes about twice as long to process as raw meat and bones do. That can be a problem because your dogs natural defence against the bacteria in raw meat/bones is his speed of digestion. If you slow that down by feeding it together with kibble, you're nulifying the dog's defences - increasing the risk that he could get sick from bacteria. Now, I have to admit that I've never actually heard of a dog that *did* get sick that way - but it makes no sense to take risks like that for no reason/benefit. If you want to continue feeding kibble as you transition to raw, then it's better to feed one meal raw and the other kibble. But don't mix them together in the same meal.

4) She is finally eating like a champ! But yesterday morning she did throw up a bit - not food, kind of a greyish liquid - but she seems healthy and happy otherwise. The poops have turned dark - like blackish. Is this normal? They have been a bit soft too.
The colour of poop on raw food depends entirely on what the dog ate. Feed carrots, and you'll get yellowish poop. Feed beef, and it will be fairly dark. Spinach might turn it near black. That's normal :) Stools should change in accordance to their makeup. It's just with kibble, every meal is identical - so you don't see changes. As for the vomit - it could be just adjusting to the new diet, or it could be that there's something in your mix that doesn't really agree with her. Which brings us back to my complaint about pre-made mixes that contain vegetables - you've got no idea which item in that mix that may be causing the problem. Maybe it's the broccoli, maybe the celery, maybe one of the other veggies in there (I haven't looked to see exactly what is in there - but you get the point).

5) The amounts seem so small. A 3 oz portion twice a day? Does this seem right for her - I think she is around 18 lbs.
Depends on her age. A baby puppy needs around 10% of her body weight in food each day. And adult needs around 2-3%. Ages in between require a percentage that's in between also. A simpler calculation is just to feed around 2-3% of her expected ideal adult weight - and then adjust for the individual (meaning that if she is losing weight, feed more. And if she starts to look a bit chunky, cut it back). Since the metabolisms of individual dogs vary as much as individual people's do, you've always got to adjust to suit. But it's the same with kibble - what's written on the bag is still only a general guide.

[Mpup]

Thanks! This is great information and totally makes sense re: the vegetables and mixing kibble with raw. I will make the adjustments and happily continue with Molly's new raw diet!

[Mpup]

I just wanted to given an update to anyone who has listened to the on-going saga of our fussy puppy - she is now a great eater. Loves, loves, loves the Raw! appicon I was hesitant for a long time to switch as I thought it would be inconvenient and confusing. Other than having a few initial questions - we are now finding it super easy. No wasted food as she is licking her bowl clean. A very pleasant side effect has been that her frequent gas is no longer an issue - much to our delight! The money we will save in air freshener alone is worth it :lol: Thanks to all for listening to me gripe about her picky eating habits and to those who answered my questions re: Raw.

[tati]

I bet that each day Molly loves you more and more! Now she is eating real dogs food! :)