Housetraining/Crate Training

[Kirby]

Hi All!

After reading through the previous posts on housetraining and crate training I have a few further questions. Please forgive me if if missed the answers to what I am about to ask. :)

A little background info: Our Kirby is 5 months old and is a rescue dog. We adopted him when he was 4 months old. He was in a foster home and had minimal crate training there - he was mostly in an x-pen with his siblings. Up until 14 weeks of age he was not allowed outdoors much due to being a sick puppy.

From day one of his arrival home to us, he has gone to bed at 10pm and slept through the night until 7:30 or 8am accident free in the crate. (With the occasional exception of whining or barking to go outside in the wee hours of the morning.) Since getting him, we have been very diligent about taking him outside during the day for "business trips" at all the times we were told to...after playing, eating, sleeping etc. He will go on command of "Be Quick" with a cookie incentive. Now that he is 5 months, he is still not housetrained and it is all a guessing game as when he has to "go". After reading through many of the threads found here - we have realized that we REALLY need to crack down on the crate training and that we are not alone in feeling like housetrained dog will never be a reality for us. :)

At this point, although I have read that the idea is to crate train during the day for as many hours as he is months old (5) plus one hour, this seems rather long since he is making a late start to this. We have started with the goal of a 2 hour stretch and he ALMOST makes it until about the hour and 45 minute mark he starts to whine and bark. On a more positive note, it usually doesn't take him long to settle down initially with something to chew on ie. PB kong.

Questions:

- Should the crate for be in an isolated area where he is by himself or should it be in a room where family activity is visible for his crate training sessions? Also, would having him in a separate room away from activity help with any separation anxiety he may have? I work from home mostly but want him to get used to the idea of no one being home too!

- How do I know that he isn't trying to tell me that he needs to go outside when he begins to fuss before the 2 hours are up? (He is taken outside before being crated but I worry. I know he should) be able to hold it!)

- Any recommendations/suggestions as to how long Kirby should start out with the crate training sessions and how quickly we can expect to advance him to longer periods of time?

Sorry for the longest post ever - I like to be detailed! Thank you!!!!

[imogene]

:lol: Don't worry I am not laughing at you. I am laughing that two months ago Mike and I were in exactly the same position. Luckily these are brilliant dogs, and there is a steep learing curve for us lucky people that get to live with them. For two weeks weeks we gave Belzie too much free run of the house - she wasn't even close to being housetrained. Her breeder had been free feeding (which made it impossible to predict her BMs) and if she wasn't teathered she would sneek (by sneek I mean bolt off as fast as she could, so that she could get done before we could catch up to her) off and poop or pee somewhere. She would also try to fake us out by squating when we took her out, but not actually peeing - that way she could pee somewhere in the house once we came back in.

We also had issues with seperation anxiety We wanted to be able to leave her penned in the kitchen when we had to leave her. But I really think that she got too attached to me. If I left her for even a second to go outside or down stairs to my office she would freak out, barking, howling, pooping on the floor. Crating her gives her a safe place to be when I can't be with her. She is more independent and secure about being by herself now and I can leave her for a few minute without having to worry that she's left me a gift somewhere:lol:

After getting lots of advice from the wonderful people here on this forum I put her on a strict schedule - for up time, eat time, poop time, walk time, crate time. I was told that for crate training you should start at 3 months with 3 hours, and then add 1 hour for every additonal month. That would mean that Kirby should be able to be crated for 5 hours. I probably would start him off at 3 or 4 hours - and take a month to work your way up to longer. We are up to 6 hours now - She sleeps for most of it, but we have given her lots of toys to play with when she's awake. We also make sure she gets atleast 1 hour of really good active time/walk and lots of affection especially if she has to go back into the crate. Now that Belzie is up to 6 hours - I only crate her once durring the day usually from (10-4) so from 9 to 9:45 she gets a walk and from 4 to 5 we go for a walk or to a dog park. She usually has BMs at 9 before her walk, and at 4 before her walk and at 9 pm before her evening walk- I have been training her to go before her walk so that the walk becomes part of her reward for pooping outside. Most of the time she will go for me, but not my husband. He doesn't know how to cheer her on the right way.

She has always been okay in her crate for 8 hours overnight.

Oh BTW crating her was miserable for me when we first started. Belzie tried really hard to train me to let her out by howling and making all kinds of demonic noises. She would do that for about 40 minutes befor realizing that it wasn't getting her anywhere. All I can say is it was like having an inconsoable baby in the house. Our trainer told us that when she acts like that doing anything to acknowlege her is like rewarding her - if we want the behavior to stop we had to ignore it. It took her about 2 weeks for her to settle down to her schedule - Sometimes I was so worried that she was fussing because she has to pee that I would take her out to go pee, but then she goes right back in until her time is up. She is doing really well now.

When she is loose in the house she needs to pee about evey 3 hours. we can tell because she will not play or show any interest in any of her toys. We make her sit at the door before going out so Sometimes she will go and sit by the door when she needs to go. I wish she would then bark at us to let us know, but I have been told that some Frenchies never will. We are trying to bell train her, but she only seems to go ring the Bell first thing in the morning or when she really has to go badly appicon

I hope that helps - we don't have carpets, wich I am so glad about - I am sure our housetraing would be much worse if we had "nice warm indoor grass" for her to find lovley private spots onevilicon It's a really good thing they are so cute and make us laugh on a daily basis.

[bulldoggin30]

Oh, housetraining. I had sooooooooo many questions too when I found this board a month or 2 ago. Let me first say, it DOES get better. You will learn your pup's potty schedule and that will help alot. If Dutchie has an accident now, it is always our fault for not putting him out at the proper time or missing his signal. He has never rang his bell or barked at the door. We take him out when we think he should go. If he needs to go, he will immediately stop what he is doing, come over to my feet, and look at me. That's it. I'm still holding out hope that someday he will just go to the door and start barking to go out. But I'm not holding my breath! :rolleyes:

[imogene]

Oh I forgot,

We walk Belzie to her crate - and give her a treat when she goes in. We also make sure to make no fuss about letting her out of her crate - If we have been out we make sure to take off our shoes and coat, and do anything we need to do (put groceries away) and then go and open her crate, and let her come out on her own. That way she know that being in her crate as a normal part of her day.

[Kirby]

Hi Everyone - thanks for all your advice!

We too never make a fuss about coming or going. Of course, he is always onto us anyways and sometimes howls the entire time we are gone even with the PB kong to distract.

Kirby's bathroom schedule is pretty much predictable as far as BM's go as he always goes right after meals. We will just have to work him up to longer periods of holding his pee slowly.

Only a couple of times has Kirby given me a signal that he needs to "go" - once he came up to me and whined. The other, he sat by the door. (I was so pleased with him that time!!!! If only that could become a regular thing down the road :) )

Any advice as to what room to practice crate training times in? Family room with family activity going on or by himself?

Also, is it wise to take him outside for a "business trip" during his 2 hour crate time practice sessions when he cries and whines? Won't this teach him that everytime he wines he doesn't have to hold it b/c I am just around the corner to let him out, therefore not encouraging bladder control?

[imogene]

Any advice as to what room to practice crate training times in? Family room with family activity going on or by himself?

We had Belzie's crate in our bedroom, and that is where we crated her during the day. After her spay surgery we brought her car crate into our living room. We had to keep her quite for 10 days, and for her that meant in her crate (it was the only way we could contain her, and we were all pretty miserable about it). I have since moved her crate into our guest room. She snores very loud, and after not really sleeping since the beginning of December I decided the best thing for our relationship was for her to have her own room. I never have the door closed completely so when I am home and she is in her crate she can still hear me, and she knows that she is not alone. Sometimes she barks when she is in her crate - I know she is just doing it to see if I will let her out early. Now if she is barking and her time is up, I don't let her out until she stays quiet for a few minutes.


Also, is it wise to take him outside for a "business trip" during his 2 hour crate time practice sessions when he cries and whines? Won't this teach him that every time he wines he doesn't have to hold it b/c I am just around the corner to let him out, therefore not encouraging bladder control?

You're right; it isn't good to take them out at all during their Kennel time -sometimes Belzie will binge on water on her way to her crate - and this made me nervous about her making it the full time. What can I say I am weak, and I don't do it anymore. Once in a while she still has her tantrums, but they last only a few minutes, before she realizes it’s not working and settles back down.

[Kirby]

Thanks! Your info helps a lot! Right now Kirby is in our bedroom at night and I will be gradually moving him out (snoring - can't tell if it is my husband or the dog!).

We were crating him in the den during the day with soft music playing but the door was shut. I am sure he could hear us outside but maybe not enough. I think that by having him in the same room or at least in another room with the door open so he can hear us better will help tremendously. Also, we have been very careful to NOT let him out in the middle of a whining fit and try to wait until he has been quite for a little bit, even if it is only for a minute. This is so hard - we have to be strong and not give in!!!

[LNsBeatles]

This may seem excessive - but Louis has two crates: a small sleeping crate and a larger play crate. The smaller crate is in my bedroom and the larger crate is in the living room. That way he can be crated and still see me depending on where I am. I'm in the process of transitioning him from a puppy room to a crate during the day -- he hasn't had an accident in either size crate appicon but I'm not sure which one to use ...

The small is quite small -- he's about 15 lbs now (a little bit over 5 months) I *think* it's this is the model, but I'm not sure about the size. I don't think we got the smallest, I thought it was the second smallest but they may not be showing it online: http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444178 0009&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302035804&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1141155902492&itemNo=18&Nao=12&In=Dog&N=2035804&Ne=2

He may out grow it, but now it's perfect -- he can stand up and turn around and he still has a ton of room. You could fit two or three Louis' in there since he's so small. :p

I think the larger one is for great danes, so you can imagine its size :rolleyes:

[imogene]

The small is quite small -- he's about 15 lbs now (a little bit over 5 months) I *think* it's this is the model, but I'm not sure about the size. I don't think we got the smallest, I thought it was the second smallest but they may not be showing it online: http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444178 0009&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302035804&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&bmUID=1141155902492&itemNo=18&Nao=12&In=Dog&N=2035804&Ne=2

He may out grow it, but now it's perfect -- he can stand up and turn around and he still has a ton of room. You could fit two or three Louis' in there since he's so small. :p :

We have the same brand of crate, just one size up: it's about 24x32 wich we were told is the right size for a full grown FB- It came with a divider wich we use to make it smaller - probably about the same size as your crate - We took the divider out, but when I moved her crate out of our bedroom she peed in it so I have put the divider back in and she has been fine since.


Thanks! Your info helps a lot! Right now Kirby is in our bedroom at night and I will be gradually moving him out (snoring - can't tell if it is my husband or the dog!).

At the Home show on the weekend we picked up some of this stuff called Arraby's Aromatherapy (http://www.arrabys.com/) "Snore no More" in hopes that it would help with Belzie's snoring - no luck but it did work with my husbands appicon Hopefully our vet is right and her snoring wil calm down once she finishes growing, and then we can bring her back. She is still confused - when we tell her to go to her crate she still heads off into our room to where her crate was and sits and looks us with her big sad eyes. If I had realized how hard it would be for her to get used to a new room, I would have moved her crate sooner.

[Kirby]

Too bad about the snoring! Poor Belzie! It's funny - Kirby is REALLY loud sometimes and then completely silent others. Depends on the position he is sleeping in I guess. Can't believe that something so small can make such a noise!:lol:

[imogene]

Belzie got really bad around 5. 5 months - the vet said it was because everything was growing at different rates -and once everything got caught up her snoring might get better or stop altogether. Sometimes she is quiet: the last couple of night she's been good, and I have been able to leave her door wide open - but right now she is as loud of a freight train :lol:

[Kirby]

Hi! I am so proud of my puppy - he pulled a 3 hour daytime crate session today accident free! appicon We even left the house for a portion of this time and he was whining very minimally when we got home. I guess he can do it - we just need to have faith in him and ourselves! I did take his towel out during this time as an extra measure. I think that that helped tremendously as well.

And I have to say that I am enjoying the additional free time I have while Kirby is practicing crate time. I was so exhausted before running around after him constantly and trying to make sure he rested and doing crate time very randomly here and there (with the exception of nighttime).

Puppies are such a joy to have but can be quite a handful too - thanks to everyone for your help and advice.

[Kirby]

Hmmm...just wondering for how long I should keep doing 3 hours crate training sessions before I bump it up to to 4 hours? We've had no accidents yet at 3-3.5 hours so far and we have been doing it dilligently now for almost 1 week. appicon

[gmacleod]

If you're at home with him during the day, I wouldn't actually ask him to hold his bladder any longer than that. Save it for when you actually need him to hold on longer. How often you ask him to do it will make no difference to his ability to hold on ;)

But asking a dog to hold their bladder isn't the best thing in the world for their health. All mammals are designed to take in a good quantity of water every day (within reason, the more the better) and to expel it as urine on a regular basis. That is how the majority of toxins are flushed from the body (first thing a nutritionist will ever tell you is to drink lots of water!). Well, when we ask our dogs to hold their bladders for long periods, we're usually asking them to restrict their water intake as well, and forcing them to hold those toxins within their bodies until it is convenient for us to give them the opprotunity to urinate and flush them out. That in turn has consequences for internal organs (particularly the kidneys), and is a big contributor to UTIs and kidney stones.

Obviously, it is a reality of modern lifestyles that many of us do have to ask our dogs to hold it for long periods. And that's not the end of the world. But if you *do* have the choice of allowing your dog to take frequent potty breaks, it is actually much better for them if you do ;) In short, if you don't have to ask your dog to hold on for long periods, then don't.

[Kirby]

Very interesting information...and helpful!

Do you think that by taking him out frequently during the day when I am at home will slow down his housebreaking? (He is out at least every two hours if he is not crated.) He is now about 5 1/2 months old :) I know a housebroken dog comes with time but so much of what I hear says that crate training for increasingly longer periods of time (over time) during the day can help with learning bladder control. Just wondering...

[gmacleod]

Well, I think the crate/bladder control thing is probably has some ligitimacy - within reason. But bladder control is something that comes with time and maturity, more than constant practice. I don't really think that there's a lot to be gained by crating him more than about three hours.

Where the crate comes into play as a housetraining tool is that it provides a place for you to put the pup when you can't be watching him, and that provides the puppy with a powerful incentive to hold his bladder. That incentive, of course, is that if he pees then he has to endure sitting in it - a most unpleasant alternative. So, he will hold his bladder until he becomes so uncomfortable that sitting in it is the lesser evil. Doesn't mean his bladder wasn't full and shrieking to be emptied long before that ;) But he'll hold on as long as being uncomfortable is the lesser of the two evils.

In short, a crate is there to prevent accidents. The learning about outside being the correct place to potty comes from repetitive successful outdoor potties, which you praise as though he just won you the lottery. The combination of that praise (in his mind: pottying must be good), removal, as far as possible, of the opportunities for him to get things wrong - via watching him like a hawk and crating when you can't, and the hand clapping, loud "Uh uh" and racing him outdoors if he does make a mistake is what will eventually teach him that he must potty outside without exception (Ooh - she's mad. Can't be pottying because that's good. Location? Eureka!). And once he finally understands that, he will voluntarily hold his bladder and (hopefully) let you know when he needs to go out.

So no, I don't think taking him outside frequently when you're home is going to slow things down. I think it will speed things up. Every successful outdoor potty is another opportunity for you to praise. And that praise is the *only* means you have got of letting him know that he just did a good thing :) And that, in turn, is the only way he can learn that pottying outside is correct ;)

[Kirby]

Thank you SO much for your advice - it has helped me tremendously...and phew! I feel a lot better now about the way we've been doing things. The last thing I wanted to do is hinder his learning but I think we are on the right track. There really have been VERY few accidents to speak of. :) I'll continue on!