are leash-free parks okay for puppies?

[Haus]

We're wondering if it would be appropriate to take our puppy to a leash-free park. She will be 5 months old next week, has had all her shots, and has socialized with other dogs in our family and neighbourhood, and more recently in puppy class. She seems good-natured with other dogs (curious and playful, but not aggressive). I noticed that the leash-free park run by the local Humane Society does not allow dogs under 6 months of age, but there is no age criterion at the city-run dog park. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

[slakker]

We've taken Belzie to every park we can find each weekend we have time. I think it's done her a lot of good to play with other dogs. I find I've had more "issues" with other owners than with the dogs. :eek:

We've run into the over protective owners who won't know the difference between wrestling and aggression biting/fighting. Then start coddling their dog because our little "monster" was chasing them.

Then there's the idiot owner who won't correct their dogs if it crosses that agression line. We had a huge rotty cross pin and bite our Belzie and all he did was say, "Your dog's gotta bite mine then it'll be fine"... Belzie can hold her own, but not against a very aggressive Rottie that out weighs her by at least 40 lbs.

So in those cases, we usually just leave the park.

But overall, it's been great. Belzie spent 1.5 hours there yesterday at a park and was tired right out and slept all afternoon. She also made some friends like this springer on another outing.

http://tandm.myftp.org/web/pics/springer-hugs.jpg

[ashley1135]

I would absolutely take her and see what happens. She might love it, or she might not care for it at all. I try to seize every opportunity to socialize my pup. He's almost 5 months old and has been playing off leash with other dogs for some time now. As long as your puppy is current on shots and you said she was, I'd say go for it! I think its vitally important to introduce dogs to new situations all the time to keep their minds stimulated and so they learn how to behave in different environments. It's essentially to start socializing them at a young age.

[imogene]

You could also check and see if there is a Meet Up group in your area. We found one in Vancouver, and have gone to 1 meet up so far. It is wonderful to watch Belzie romp with other Frenchies -they really know how to play with her.
Oun next meet is this sunday, we are really looking forward to it.

[imogene]

Oh but we also only let her off leash in enclosed parks - where we live not all off-leash areas are fenced, and we are not 100% with her come command yet. It would be horrible for us if we lost her, cause she ran off!

[Frog Dog Love]

This is one topic I am very interested in and hope I don’t make this too long! But it will be hard to condense what I’m trying to discuss. I did a search on this Board to see any previous threads on this topic and there were several back in April 2005. I will reply to the question in this thread because it’s current.

I really would like to hear the experiences of others because I have had several bad experiences with other dogs. I DO NOT let mine off leash now (unless I KNOW all the dogs and this is never at a dog park) and I will leave any area if I feel any owner/dog is present that doesn’t seem to “get it” so to speak (and this is on leash I'm talking here!).

Per the rules I will not post a link to another page that sells products, etc. but if you do a google search on “dog parks, why they are a bad idea” you should easily find a very informative site about the many dangers associated with dog parks. You may or may not agree with this sites beliefs but if even a fraction of the stories people have written in with are true, it's enough to make anyone stop and seriously consider all the possibilities.

I found it after searching for help after one two many times of off-leash dogs biting and snapping at my dog when he was a puppy and doing nothing to provoke them. I was looking for answers as to what I should do or what if anything, I might be doing wrong. After reading what I could find and weighing the risks I really can’t in good conscience tell anyone that I think off-leash parks are a good idea.

There have been dogs killed and others seriously injured. And depending on what happens, your dog might be emotionally scarred for life. Without knowing it at the time, I did react correctly and aggressively defended my puppy. Since researching all I can find on the subject, my decision has been to be VERY selective of the who/when/where’s of play my Frenchie gets.

I was worried sick after a large off leash dog viciously snapped at my puppy’s head, broke the skin and drew blood. I was right there (thank goodness) but this other owner was like the rotty owner mentioned in the previous post – he just didn’t “get it”. (Also too far away to have been any use what so ever and his dog did not come when called!) Luckily mine was fine, it healed (took two weeks) and didn’t scar but having lived through it I know it could have been much worse and I was right there! That was the last straw and I started searching the topic.

The previous post mentioned issues with overly protective and/or idiot owners. I’m definitely one of the over-protective ones now, having been on the receiving end of dog aggressive behavior coupled with it’s “idiot” owner - but unless you have some kind of psychic power you won’t know what you’re dealing with at a dog park until it may be too late? A risk I’m not gambling on with my dog.

Now any play is ONLY with dogs I know VERY well. Neighbor’s dogs, friend’s dogs, dogs I know really well from dog showing, etc. If we’re ever in a situation where I don’t know even one of the dogs present I watch like a hawk and he stays on leash.

His recall isn’t 100% and that is really a big part of the problem with all dogs. Our own, and others. How many are truly perfectly obedience trained? Not many! Especially when they’re excited at a dog park. And definitely not when a fight starts. You’re out enjoying yourself and another dog starts acting out of line or worse, starts a fight and the owner has no control and it’s too late anyway because the damage is done. Believe me when I tell you, it happens in an instant – If the rotty who pinned the smaller Frenchie had raised it’s level of attack any further there could have been awful results. And really what good is the owner correcting it when it “crosses the aggression line” mentioned earlier after it’s already taken a chunk out of your dog?

If your dog does not come to you every time you call, how will you handle an emergency where it’s life may depend on it?

I would rather err on the side of caution and not have an injured dog or worse – a dead one! I was very interested in what the site I found said about dog aggressive dogs and how even one attack could leave a dog with fear biting issues or conversely, made them into dog aggressive dogs. Have any of you encountered this? Has your dog ever been injured at a dog park? I believe I saw somewhere in a post on here that their dog now “dislikes” the breed that it was attacked by.

It’s obviously a topic that could start some real debate here and please, it’s just my opinion and a decision I’ve made for us based on what has happened to us and what I’ve found through research. I’ll be nothing but happy for you if you’ve had only good experiences with your dog/s and hope it stays that way.

[slakker]

This defintiely is one of those issues that each person must weigh the risks for themselves. To err of the safe side is probably a good idea. I can't speak for other countries or cities, but I'm glad the area we live in, our experience has been that dog parks are a very low risk safe area for our Belzie to play in. No more risk than driving in a car per se (although this is anecdotal as I don't have any stats to prove this).

If you can find a park where most of the dogs and owners are usually the same visitors, which we've found has been our experience in our area, then you do start knowing most if not all the dogs over a short period of time. Maybe that'll help. But if you're in a large city where there are thousands of different visitors each time, then it can be hard to know the owners and the dogs.

[franp]

My dog is one that now dislikes a breed because she was bitten by a Chihuaha as a pup..Frenchies have LOOONG memories and historically hold a grudge..

Do I understand you correctly; you leave your dog on leash in an off leash park??If so, that in and of itself incites aggression..Please excuse me , if I read your post incorrectly..

These are dogs we are dealing with,and as such we can not read thier minds..I respect your opinion as to the safetly of your dog..BUT,don't think that just because the dogs your dog plays with have always been safe , they will stay that way.. There are so many verified accounts of animals being fine one day and the next deciding that they don't like one another..All I am saying is don't let down your guard..

We go to the dogpark..And I am ULTRA vigilant.. I know my dog's body language and what can set her off..Every dog IMO has that boiling point..And I watch out for the others..During the week the "pack" is stable.. Her dogwalker takes her, the dogs are the same..NO jockeying for position etc..The weekends are a very different story..Strangers, new dogs..Mostly we stay away..

Bottom line...there is NO totally safe envirnment...NO matter how long or how well you think you know the other dog..

As to making a dog fear aggressive; IMO no...A dog is fear aggressive already..This is from lack of socialization and bad breeding.. Not an episode or two in a dog park...
My dog was bitten and is far from fear aggressive..This is a personality trait that is part of the dog like pack position...it is fearful or not..Most aggressive dogs are dogs that are afraid, not truly aggressive...We see this so very often in rescue..

Again, taking a dog to socialize is a very individual choice.. Depends on our level of comfort and our dog...

[Emmi]

i can say missy despite anything happening to her is not afraid of anything but emma now, cannot STAND the sight of any husky or similiar cross, she will go for it if given the chance. this is all due to a puppy preschool session, not even in a dog park but in a supposed SAFE environment where pups are supposed to be of a size and there was this 4 month old husky cross who came to our preschool class when all pups were at most 8 weeks of age! the pups had all been playing nicely when that husky x in the blink of an eye had slammed emma into the wall and had her pinned to the ground. i was furious! especially when the tutor said "its all part of play". no it is NOT if a puppy gets injured in the process! we all know how fragile a frenchie pup is at that age.

after the class i phoned up the tutor and gave her a good talking to and told her i would not come to class anymore unlss that dog was banned from our class (which he was). this happened 6 months ago but it still makes me mad thinking about it, when people just think "its all part of the learning process" even though you can obviously see that a pup is terrified. emma has now gotten over that fear but dont let her near anything resembling a husky as she has given any of them a good chase or attempt to bite them quite thoroughly and i find it hard to calm her down over that, normally she is the calmest pup i know but only in this particular case.

i now am so protective over missy and emma, if people come up to the pups i pick them up or keep them behind me as it is hard to predict the behaviour of other dogs (and people, as some think oh they are so cute and proceed to try and pick them up by their forelegs without even asking!), if they are off leash i only let dogs of a similiar size to them approach, i just cant take the risk, better safe than sorry i say.

[Haus]

Well, we took Lola to the leash free park yesterday, and it was a really good experience. There were only three other dogs there - a Great Dane, Sheep Dog, and German Shepard. It was hilarious to see little Lola try to keep up with them. All the dogs got along really well, and Lola especially took to the Great Dane - I wish I had my camera! Apparently, the park is really hopping on Saturday mornings, but I think we'll stick to quieter times, so there are fewer risk variables. Thanks everyone for the input!

[slakker]

I don't know what it is with Frenchies, but our Belzie really loves the big dogs as well. One of her best "friends" in puppy class was an English Mastiff also named Lola. This mastiff was so HUGE I had trouble holding on to her, but she would lie flat on the ground to be at the same height as our little Belzie just so they can play "eye to eye". appicon

[Frog Dog Love]

[QUOTE=franp]My dog is one that now dislikes a breed because she was bitten by a Chihuaha as a pup..Frenchies have LOOONG memories and historically hold a grudge..

I think from what I understood from the site I mentioned in my first post is that dogs in general (not just Frenchies) do remember these incidents and hold a grudge as you've described it, but not being able to know what dogs think maybe they are actually "afraid" it is about to happen again so they're reacting to what they perceive as a repeat occurance?

[QUOTE=franp]Do I understand you correctly; you leave your dog on leash in an off leash park??If so, that in and of itself incites aggression..Please excuse me , if I read your post incorrectly..

No excusing necessary - it's hard to really know whats intended to be said with posts sometimes. (Plus I'm not sure how my reply is going to look with your quotes? Hope it makes sense) No - we don't go to off leash parks. There are a few places we have gone that have certain times that are off leash - we don't go then - but ALWAYS seem to encounter people who ignore the posted signs that are EVERYWHERE! Plus it's my own personal hell that there are allot of dogs off leash where they shouldn't be allot of the time! I even spoke to an Animal Control Officer in Vancouver once and they agree that it's just too hard for them to police things.

[QUOTE=franp]These are dogs we are dealing with,and as such we can not read thier minds..I respect your opinion as to the safetly of your dog..BUT,don't think that just because the dogs your dog plays with have always been safe , they will stay that way.. There are so many verified accounts of animals being fine one day and the next deciding that they don't like one another..All I am saying is don't let down your guard..

I couldn't agree more - when he's playing with these know/approved dogs I'm still watching their every move and we're in each others yards. I think your point is the one I was trying to make to the original poster asking if we thought dog parks were o.k. That being - that in AN INSTANT things can change - even with dogs that have been playing just fine - and for us I don't ever want that to be at a park with some huge powerful dog that is obviously gonna come out the victor in any dust up!

[QUOTE=franp]Bottom line...there is NO totally safe envirnment...NO matter how long or how well you think you know the other dog..

I very good point that I wish all dog owners everywhere would "get". I'm getting really tired of all the "my dog is really friendly" "he/she doesn't bite" "he/she just wants to play" "they're just working it out" etc. etc. etc.

[QUOTE=franp]As to making a dog fear aggressive; IMO no...A dog is fear aggressive already..This is from lack of socialization and bad breeding.. Not an episode or two in a dog park...
My dog was bitten and is far from fear aggressive..This is a personality trait that is part of the dog like pack position...it is fearful or not..Most aggressive dogs are dogs that are afraid, not truly aggressive...We see this so very often in rescue..

I have spoken with a woman who's Frenchie was savagely attacked at a puppy class here in Vancouver. I have not met her dog but she is certain he was traumatized for life from that incident. She is devistated and said he was nothing but your typical loving, friendly, playful Frenchie before and now is unmanageable when he sees "any" dog (not just the breed that attacked him). She is working with a private trainer to help him along but so far it has been a long, slow process. Not a nice thing! I"m thinking the same thing is even more likely to happen at a dog park?

Anyway - thanks for letting my vent and give my 2 cents! And thanks for everyones thoughts! Great Board![QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTE]

[franp]

[QUOTE=Frog Dog Loveof the time! I even spoke to an Animal Control Officer in
I have spoken with a woman who's Frenchie was savagely attacked at a puppy class here in Vancouver. I have not met her dog but she is certain he was traumatized for life from that incident. She is devistated and said he was nothing but your typical loving, friendly, playful Frenchie before and now is unmanageable when he sees "any" dog (not just the breed that attacked him). She is working with a private trainer to help him along but so far it has been a long, slow process. Not a nice thing! I"m thinking the same thing is even more likely to happen at a dog park?


There is an exception to every rule..Yes, probably the best bred and socialized dog can/would become totally afraid if attacked in the scenario you are relating..BUT from my experience,fear aggression for the MOST part comes from very poor socializtion and bad breeding..
Is it more likely to happen at a dog park?By not allowing a dog the opportunity to interact,it is being denied the ability to develop and loose fear..A careful owner can use a dogpark as a positive experience.I have done so for 6 years..The vast majority of people ,the same.
Indeed the negative experiences for Dari and I are more often than not, on the street, with the dogowner who walks up without asking.. lets thier dog get into her face ..Or a dog in an on leash area , that is off leash..
IMO, an alert owner using a dogpark properly, gives thier dog a wonderful experience at the park...

[imogene]

I have spoken with a woman who's Frenchie was savagely attacked at a puppy class here in Vancouver. I have not met her dog but she is certain he was traumatized for life from that incident. She is devastated and said he was nothing but your typical loving, friendly, playful Frenchie before and now is unmanageable when he sees "any" dog (not just the breed that attacked him). She is working with a private trainer to help him along but so far it has been a long, slow process. Not a nice thing! I"m thinking the same thing is even more likely to happen at a dog park?

Dogs do have fears - getting attacked by another dog is surely awful, and enough to cause major issues. It is very important for us as owners to do nothing to reinforce fearful behaviors. Anything like picking the dog up, trying to calm them, petting them just gives the dog permission to be afraid. We accidental "rewarded' our puppy when she got scared by a passing bus walking. We live on a bus route and she goes for three walks a day with busses running and it has taken us almost 2 months to recondition her to where she will walk normally as a bus passes by. IMO the woman you talked to probably did something to reinforce the dogs fear. I am glad that she is working with a trainer to deal with the problem.

As far as do parks go . . .I think a lot of people don't understand that dogs communicate with their mouths - and that what may seem aggressive to us is normal to them. It is very important to me and my husband to socialize our Belzie to dogs, cats, humans, ducks, you name it we will try and expose her to it. I couldn't imagine not giving Belzie the chance to play and socialize with other dogs.

I am very curious to know which puppy class your friend took her dog to. We also went to a puppy class in Vancouver, but our Trainer was nothing but excellent, and as part of the class she taught us what to watch with aggressive play that might cross the line.

As far as aggression getting out of hand being more likely in a dog park - I don't agree. In a dog park there is no expectation of safety and no expectation to stay. We expect a classroom environment to be safe, and let our guard down. Also in the presence of a trainer you'd be more likely to wait for them to intercede, even if you not sure if the play is too rough. At the park if there is an issue you have to deal with it - because there is a chance no one else will. In our experience 98% of dog owners in the parks have been great - there have been a couple that were ignorant or annoying or both - when someone like that shows up we leave. We like the Buntzen Lake off leash area because it's sooooooo big that with 30 or 40 dogs it seems empty.

There is a Frenchie Meet Up on Sunday at 1 pm, at the Ambleside Off Leash area in West Vancouver. I know you don't seem comfortable bringing your dog to off leash areas, but it really is amazing to watch a bunch of Frenchies play and romp together. We went a January Meet, and it was so much fun, and so nice to meet other Frenchie owners too!