Help with Food Elimination

[ev960d]

Cola is allergic to chicken egg. He was fed Canidae kibble previously. The only thing he has not eaten before is pork. What I really wanted is to feed him raw diet but Vet strongly advise that pork is not a good meat to start raw with (bec she said our meat source in the market is not really that fresh and pork has 'worms'??). Now, I'm concerned with calcium as bone given cooked..what am I going to do?? Since he started on pork (since 11 Feb), he scratched much lesser and I'm taking a risk initially not to feed him steriods even though he was prescribed.

Gwyneth, can you please help us? I read some of your link that mentioned Grape seed extract can kill most baterial on the meat. Do you think I should use that and start him with raw pork? I believe in raw diets, the only reason I haven't is I think I'm not knowlegable enough to feed him 100% raw. Looks like now, I have to make a start.

[gmacleod]

Sure, I can help :)

Which "worms" specifically is it that your vet is concerned with? Pork is a meat that can be problematic in some parts of the world, but in the majority of places is really not an issue. Meat that is raised for the human food chain is well checked and free of parasites, and in any case freezing the meat for a couple of weeks before feeding takes care of most of those anyway. Just the same as cooking does (in short, if it's safe for people to eat cooked, it's usually safe for dogs to eat raw - you just have to take the simple precaution of freezing it first. But that's just a standard food hygiene issue). There are a couple of exceptions to that rule, and of course, wild pork needs to be treated with a bit more caution - as does any wild meat. But it would help to know precisely what it is that your vet is raising concerns about. Miscellaneous "worms" doesn't help much ;) I'm guessing it's Trichinosis or aujeszky's disease - but freezing the meat will take care of those (and they're rare in meat raised for the human food chain anyway).

Beyond that, I see no reason not to use pork as the basis of an elimination diet. When you're trying to narrow down allergies, a raw or homecooked diet is the best way to do it. It is the *only* way you can feed single food items one at a time and be 100% certain of what causes reactions and what doesn't.

If you prefer, you can cook the meat. But you must not cook the bone. If cooking is your prefered way of feeding, then you'd have to use bone meal added to the food. Raw bones are much better (either whole or ground), but bone meal is really the only safe way to feed cooked bone.

[ev960d]

Gwyneth, I think I spoke too soon...I was playing with Cola and found OMG..alot of red spots on his under body, other parts of the body, ok..hair fall is under control now. He didn't really scratch as much as when he was fed Canidae. Is he experiencing detox? Or is he worsened? It's been 3 days since the last doze of steriod. Is it because of the stepping down of steriods..and now a total stop on steriods?

Should I still continue pork, potatoes & carrots diet? Or should I change? Which part of the pork can I feed raw with bones? Vet told me I should feed like that for 2 weeks without steriods. What do you recommend? Eh, I read about your comments about potatoes. I will change potatoes to sweet potatoes. Funny, can't find sweet potatoes from supermarket today.

I don't know what "worms" the vet talking about. She told me if my dog gets it, it's going to be 'horrible' and it can pass on to humans. Some people here do not take pork bec of religion. Others' believe that it's not a 'good' meat. We have cases of foot & mouth diseases some years back from our neighbouring country which we imported pork from. That's the history about pork which I can recall.

[gmacleod]

Mmm. A brief internet search suggests that most of the chilled pork in Singapore comes from Australia, New Zealand, and the US. Frozen pork coming from Brazil. I see there was a concern about pork from Indonesia possibly being infected with bird flu, but apparently pork in Singapore isn't sourced from there. That being the case, I wouldn't worry too much about feeding pork. Not as long as it's human grade.

With that out of the way, can you tell me what your pup has eaten throughout his life? I looked at some of your previous posts and see you've mentioned feeding raw beef and chicken, and Canidae kibble (which has ckicken, turkey, lamb and herring). The only real grain there is rice. Is that the total of what he's been fed?

When it comes to doing an elimination diet, he actually should not be getting any vegetables at all. It is just as possible for him to be allergic to the carrots or the potatoes as it is for him to be allergic to a meat or a grain. He needs to be eating a single food item. That should be something that he hasn't been fed before, so he won't have any pre-existing antibodies against. Allergies are an abnormal response of the immune system, production of antibodies against some allergen. That's why we need a unique meat source - something he hasn't been exposed to before so cannot have existing antibodies against. And no vegetables - if he isn't eating a single item, how could we know which one is causing the problem?

Sooo - you feed that one single item for several weeks to see if his allergy symptoms disappear. If they do, then we know his problems are food allergies only. If the symptoms dissipate a lot but don't completely disappear, we'll be able to be fairly sure that he has both food and environmental allergies. And if it makes no difference whatsoever, then you can be reasonably sure that the problem is not food, but environmental allergies alone.

Working on the assumption that the symptoms either disappear or dramatically reduce - and we are thus quite sure that food is at least part of the problem - we would then start adding new food items into his diet one single thing at a time. That would be one new meat. Or one new vegetable. But never a mix of things, because then we would not be able to tell what caused an allergic reaction. Does that make sense to you?

If it is going to be pork that you use for this elimination trial (which I think is fine), then it has to be pork alone. Pork meat, bone and offal - but no vegetables, no grains, no pasta and no treats. Just the pork. If you prefer, you could use any other readily available meat that he hasn't been fed previously - rabbit, fish, duck, venison. Anything one of them would do, as long as he hasn't had it before.

As for which parts of pork will be suitable, really any meat parts. Ribs would be good for the bone content, but they can be fed with some pork meat as well (ribs aren't particularly meaty, but they're a nice sized bone to feed).

It really is quite difficult to say with any certainty what the problem is with his itching and red spots. It could well be the elimination of the steroids, especially if he actually has a problem with environmental allergies. I'm afraid to say that that is actually very likely. But you'd only be able to determine what the problem there is with an allergy test. An elimination diet will tell you if the problem is food alone, or mostly food. But if the problem is mostly environmental allergies, then it's unlikely that the elimination diet will make any real difference. Still, it is something worth knowing, and therefore worth doing. Worst case scenario is that you end up having to do allergy tests for him.

[ev960d]

Cola has been fed raw chicken, raw beef, Canidae kibble and Nutripe, treats like natural balance duck and potatoes, beef stripes, bully sticks, dried venison liver, dried beef tripe and dried lamb liver, apples, pear. Currently, pork, potatoes & carrots.

Oh dear, the vet insisted that I should feed him some vegetables in his diet. Ok, I will cut down to just single meat, no vegetables. This morning, I checked his belly, hmm..alot better than last night. Most of the redness subsided. Some of the dots look like pimples with a little pus. We are confused by the 2 vets (same clinic). The senior one said he is very certain our pup is food allergy..while the junior one diagnosed it as yeast infection previously. Gave us Sebasol shampoo for him but it didn't stop the itch.

Gwyneth, after your approval on pork, I've more confidence to try raw pork ribs..I know you will be there for us :). I will give him 2% a day. Is this enough? If it is ok, I will try this diet in the weekend and let you know how he is doing.

[gmacleod]

I don't think the vegetables are a good idea at this stage, just because they'll make it that much harder to narrow down the sources/causes of his allergies. Dogs don't really need vegetables in their diet (many raw feeders never give any vegetables at all) and in any case, we're talking about a short term situation. He isn't going to be eating only pork for a long time - just long enough to get rid of all those allergy symptoms. Then new foods can be added to his diet one single thing at a time. Each one monitored for any reaction - and put on an "OK to feed" or "Not OK to feed" list accordingly. Eventually, you'll have a list of things he can be fed, and you'll know which ones have to be avoided.

If it makes you more comfortable, vegetables can be amongst the first items to try. But if you don't start with just one single food item and the allergies don't subside - how could we possibly know whether it's the pork, the potatoes or the carrots that are the problem?

I would suggest feeding him on a mixture that is about 50% pork ribs, and 50% pork meat. Ribs themselves don't have a huge amount of meat on them, and if you fed only ribs he probably wouldn't be getting quite enough meat in his diet. So a mixture of the two should solve that problem. A small amount of pork offal is also a good thing to add (but it has to be pork offal - liver, kidneys, heart etc - not offal from any other animal) but that shouldn't exceed about 10% of the total. With that mixture, he will be getting a good nutritious diet and there will be no need to worry that he is missing anything there.

Hopefully all his allergy symptoms will subside with that, though it may take some time for them to completely disappear. If things are starting to look a little better already though, that is a very good sign :)

[ev960d]

Sure Gwyneth, I trust your expertise esp in the area of diets more than anyone else :) Thanks for the meal plan..no vegetables..ok I got it. If I can get some frozen pork, I will try that possibly tomorrow. I'm only concern about him getting diarrhoea. I'm prepared to take some days off from work to take care of him if that happens. Hopefully, he will get used to the switch to raw diets. All I wish for is Cola to be healthy & happy.

Oh it's Valentine's day...Happy Valentine's day to you Gwyneth and all bulldog world friends ;)

[gmacleod]

If he's been eating pork with potatoes and carrots, he shouldn't have much trouble switching to just pork. I certainly hope it's the case, anyway. Let me know how it goes :)

[ev960d]

Gwyneth, yeh..we have won 1/2 the battle! Cola is doing well with raw pork meals appicon !! I followed your recommendation 60-70g spare ribs, 60-70g meat, 10g liver. Is this correct? No treats, no vegetables. Oh yeah, I stood at the supermarket for a long time, alot of ribs but looked quite different. Is spare ribs ok? Or should I feed the straight ribs?..the bones looked quite tough.

It's amazing! The night before he had cooked pork belly and was having diarrhoea. I thought ahr~ might as well change him to raw and was prepared for the worst. To my surprise, his poo turned out much better than cooked meal!

He is still stratching abit. I guess it will take some time to go away. Do you have an idea how long it will disappear? Oh before I forgot, do I need to still brush his teeth? I'm getting into that habit already..but only concern since tooth paste is swallowed should I be concerned about that too? A quick look at the ingredients, it says it contains natural oil distilled from the leaves of Tea tree (melaleuca alternifolia) and cinnamon.

[gmacleod]

Very good :) I'm glad to hear that he's doing well.

Spare ribs is just fine, btw. All we're looking for is something of an appropriate size for him to chew up and consume, so any sort of pork ribs that he can handle well enough is just great. LOL - I'm not surprised his stools are better on straight raw meat/bone/offal - this is the food he is evolved to eat, his natural diet. It is the things like vegetables and grains that cause more trouble ;)

The ratio of meat/bone/offal you're feeding there sounds fine. With 140 grams of meat and bone, you could give up to 20 grams of offal. Remember to make it a variety of different organ meats though - sometimes liver, sometimes kidney, heart etc.

Just keep him on that diet for a while. It could take a week or two before you see a significant imporvement in his itchies and spots, and several weeks for them to be gone completely (assuming that it's food allergies in the first place). But whether it provides a cure or not, it is very unlikely to make things worse. Do keep us updated on his progress though!

Now, on the toothpaste... if he is eating raw bones like that, then there isn't so much need to be brushing his teeth. I'd be a bit wary about that toothpaste anyway - tee tree oil can be toxic to dogs. There are several different types of melaleuca that get classified under the tee tree oil label - but it's the one in your toothpaste that's thought to be problematic. Now granted, that's as an essential oil and applied topically, but I wouldn't think it's a good thing for a dog to be ingesting. Difficult to see what use it is in toothpaste anyway. I'd ditch it. There's always the possibility that it's adding to his itchies, and with raw bones in his dinner, he has a natural teeth cleaner.

[ev960d]

Gwyneth, I suspected Cola is allergic to vinegar. I use vinegar diluted with water to wipe his mouth & belly and found alot of red spots on his arms when I came home from work :eek: Applied aloe vera gel on him & some antiseptic powder. He seems to be better and is sleeping soundly now..

To help us recall what I did that bring about a change to the environment, I will keep a log book. For example yesterday, I use baking powder & floormate to wipe the floor because he has been having some accidents around the house & I want to use a safe method to remove those smells so that he won't be confused where he is suppose to eliminate. Looks like he is not reacting to this. I shall use baking powder w water to clean his play pen? Is this ok?

The pork diet makes his poo sometimes very hard, sometimes very soft like diarrhoea and then sometimes slimy..is this normal? I find that in recent mornings he will wake up at 4.30 or 5.30am and then scratch scratch scratch...I feed him dinner between 7-8pm; is his 4.30am itch episode related to pork meal?. Or he is just 'habitual' or too bored?

I will monitor him closely and update you when I have further suspects or detail.

[ev960d]

Forgot to mention, I notice that prior to his exposure to vinegar, for the past few days, he has been reacting quite well to the raw pork diet.

I didn't quite managed to express in my post last night...I do notice that there are some new spots appearing while the older ones subsided..overall, the number of new spots raised decreases or rather slow down even though he is still scratching. I'm wondering if his scratch is because of some detoxing effect?

This morning, his poop is good appicon . Sometimes, the meal is not totally thawed when I gave it to him..I wonder if his poop is affected by 1/2 frozen meal. In any case, my gut feeling is pork diet should work for him given time. I can tolerate soft stools if it's not health threatening issue.

[gmacleod]

I would certainly ditch the vinegar. With an elimination diet it is important that that is the *only* thing he is consuming - he shouldn't be getting any treats or other substances at all. If he has more than one thing, you will never be able to determine cause. He has to have pork only for while. And once everything is stabilised, you can gradually start introducing other things ONE at a time. That is the only way it is possible to determine which items are a problem.

Using baking powder/water to clean his play pen is probably OK. If a substance other than water is really required. But it would be a good idea to rinse it very thoroughly with water afterward. That will lessen the risk of the baking powder contaminating the elimination trial.

As for his stools, it is possible that feeding the meat half frozen is the cause. That is likely to cause stomach upsets anyway - the meat/bone should be properly defrosted (actually preferably up to room temperature) before feeding.

Now, it is a good sign that his red bumps are starting to diminish. That would suggest that the pork diet is OK, he probably hasn't got any allergy issues with that food. But he may also have environmental allergies, and if that is the case, the skin problems probably won't clear up completely. It will help if you can keep him out of contact with any household cleaners, air fresheners, etc in case they're part of the problem (and they frequently are - for people as well as pets). But it can also take a while for allergens to completely leave the animals' system and their immune systems to settle down and stop over-reacting. Up to around 6 weeks in some cases. So keep him on the pork diet in the meantime, and let's see if things continue to improve. The fact that there has been some improvement already is certainly a very good sign (we just can't expect instand miracles here).

Even if we don't get 100% clearance of his allergy symptoms, we can still do the elimination trial. As each new food item is introduced, he will still react noticably to it if he has an allergy to each item. But we'll know that we're also dealing with some environmental allergies - and for that, you might need to consider allergy testing to determine what are the problems (and whether or not you can do anything about it).

[ev960d]

I've got good news! Cola's skin looks better now! appicon Meanwhile, I was looking for a clinic that does allergy test. I think only 1 clinic in S'pore does the test. This is what the doc says in response to my email:-

"Dear Esther,

Intradermal skin testing(IDST) is used to identify environmental allergies
in dogs(atopy). I have a list of 47 common environmental allergens that I
use in the IDST. The allergens range from dust mites, grass pollens, tree
pollens, weed pollens, mould spores & insects. The IDST costs $250. It takes
a day to do the test. patients usually come into the clinic in the morning &
I can have results by the afternoon.

Atopy can also be diagnosed with a blood test which tests the IgE levels in
blood. This is however inaccurate & I am no longer using that test.

Food allergens are not included in the IDST panel, because you'll often get
false positive results. Food allergy is diagnosed with an elimination diet
trial. If you think you dog is suffering from environmental allergies and
would be interested to work up the allergy so that it can be managed better
than the usual steroids & antibiotics, then give me a call at the clinic."

Gwyneth, what do you think of IDST test? hmm...do you think Cola needs to do the test now? Or should we wait till after the 6 weeks food trial (and does not get 100% clearance?)

[gmacleod]

I would suggest waiting until after the food trial is done with. That is essentially because you just said his skin is looking a lot better. That being the case, we have to start thinking that there is a reasonable chance here that food might end up being his only problem. And if that turns out to be the case, the testing for environmental allergies would be a waste of time.

If you'd like to go ahead anyway, it isn't going to upset anything - so there isn't really any reason not to do it. My recommendation is based solely on the improvement he is making and what now appears to be a strong chance that it is food allergies only that is the problem. If you don't think that's the case, and feel he is battling environmental allergies as well, then by all means go ahead with the testing.

It's good to hear that things are improving for him on the pork diet though :) Hopefully he'll continue to improve, then we can start the slow process of introducing new food items and seeing what he can and can't eat.

[ev960d]

Hi Gwyneth,

It's been some 5 weeks since we started the raw pork diet. Hmm...Cola's condition is stable but he still has some spots & itches. He is now sort of reaching a plateau. I still have pork meals that can last for another 1+ week. Should I continue or should I try another meat source which he has never eaten before and monitor for improvement hopefully?

[gmacleod]

Well, I think I'd go to another meat by now. The chances seem very high that you're dealing with both food AND environmental allergies here. If it were solely a food problem, you should really have seen complete elimination of his spots by now. And the fact that you've reached a plateau suggests the same thing - all issues relating to food have been resolved, so you've just got the residual effects of the environmental issues there.

Still - this is a good improvement for him :) It sounds as though he's a lot more comfortable. Now you've got to go through a long process of working out which foods he is fine with, and which ones cause him more problems and have to be avoided. If you want to find out what his environmental allergies are, you'd probably need to do the allergy testing now (and you may or may not be able to eliminate the causes - it could be things like dust and pollen, which are quite hard to avoid. It could be things you can avoid too though!).

My suggestion for the food would be to choose another meat now. Keep feeding the pork for one meal per day, but feed the other meat as the second meal. If he starts having a reaction to that new meat, stop feeding it and revert to pork only. If he has no reaction, then that's a second "safe" thing for him to eat. Wait a few days, then we try another meat - by the same method, and it will also end up on the "safe to feed" or "do not feed" list depending on how he does with it. You'll need to keep doing that until you've tried pretty much everything that you're likely to be feeding regularly (ie. what is easy to get and reasonably priced). And this applies to vegetables also - test them one at a time (you need to know if, say, potatoes are a problem, or celery, etc and the only way you can know that is if they're tested one at a time). Slowly but surely, you'll find out exactly what your dog can and can't have. Then it's a simple matter of feeding him on a variety of the things that he is not allergic to :)

[ev960d]

I can't thank you enough for your prompt response each time I run into questions :) I followed your method and started to feed 1 meal pork & the other beef. I feed him the same ratio as pork meal. I gave him 70g meat, 70g beef ribs and 20g beef heart. Is this ok for beef meal? He has 3 nights of beef already. I find it not easy to monitor if he is doing ok with beef because he has some rashes which are not food related. If I feed him a meal of beef for a week is sufficient to confirm? I'm speculating like a blind man:p ...If rashes is worst than pork meal then beef is no good for him. So far, his condition seems to be ok.

[gmacleod]

Yes, that sounds a very good beef meal to me :)

I find it not easy to monitor if he is doing ok with beef because he has some rashes which are not food related.
Yes, that's the problem when there are multiple allergy problems - it makes it much more difficult to be certain about the food items. The best you can do is try to keep the environment static (don't change anything) and monitor the effects of each food in respect of whether or not they make things worse.

I'd suggest feeding the beef for a good week. If there are no changes to his rash, then you can fairly safely assume beef is OK. Obviously, if he breaks out in hives, the rash gets worse or he becomes extremely itchy, then you'd have to figure beef is something he's allergic to.

If there was no change at all and beef is therefore figured to be OK, then move on to the next meat type. Repeating the above observations, to determine whether it's good or bad for him. But if you do run into some reactions, then you need to revert to "safe" meats (so far, all we know is pork is safe) only until he's stabilised again and all his symptoms are gone as far as possible. Then it's time to try another meat ;)

LOL - it can be a long process. But very much worthwhile :)

[ev960d]

Beef is ok appicon I'd like to move on to lamb. Can I give him 1 meal beef and another lamb or do I have to stick to 1 meal pork? Hmm...it's one of the meat source in Candidae so I'll have to monitor closely. I'm worried about the possiblity of diarrhoea. Do you think it's too soon to introduce lamb? Oh yeah, when do I know when to phase out pork?

I can get frozen whole mackeral fish at our supermarket. Is the whole fish 1 meal or 1 day meal? Do I need to try fish for a week too? Fishes come in all sorts of sizes, does 2-3% of his ideal weight still applies? Hmm..I was wondering since there are so many different types of fish, if he is allergic to one kind, can I give him another or all fish is automatically allergic to him?

I don't know if I should try chicken or duck now because now it's always about birdflu. Is it safe to feed raw chicken & duck? It's human grade but birdflu is still at the back of my mind. Hand, foot and mouth disease strikes children and adults here again but there is no mention of any particular animals resulting the spread. I remembered the last time, it came from pigs.

[gmacleod]

Yay! appicon

Well, that's good news :) So we've got two meats now that he is OK with.

Yes, I think it's fine to move on to lamb. And if he's fine with beef, then it should be OK for one of his two meals per day to be beef rather than pork. That actually does phase out the pork ;) But it's always there (as is beef) for something to revert to to clear up symptoms if he has a reaction with some other meat. Meaning that if he reacted to lamb, for example, then you'd stop feeding the lamb and revert to a "safe" meat (currently either pork or beef) until all the symptoms were gone - then try another new food item.

On fish, it's not guaranteed that if he is allergic to one type he'll be allergic to all types (or looked at the other way, being allergic to one type of fish doesn't necessarily mean that he will be allergic to all). So it's really something you've got to test out and see.

Your bird flu question is a bit harder to answer though... It's something I'm giving some thought to myself, since the arrival of bird flu in the UK is imminent. Cats and dogs CAN contract the virus, and members of both species have died. In felines, I have seen one report of a death (actually a tiger) where the cat is believed to have contracted the virus through consuming infected meat. Previously, it has been said that it is not a food-borne illness... I am also yet to discover (if anyone actually even knows) whether freezing will kill the virus - cooking will, but I don't know about freezing. It might - it does for many things. But right now, that's a big unknown, I'm afraid.

Anyway, that doesn't really help you much. In the final event, I think it's a decision you need to make based on your level of faith in food hygiene and handling regulation where you live. Here in the UK, my confidence in that is *low* based on historic/recent events, scandals and practices - and I am considering ceasing to feed poultry once bird flu is established here. Obviously, if I were to find out that freezing kills the virus, then I would happily continue to feed poultry. But I don't know that yet ;) and am watching the situation carefully.

[ev960d]

hmm...I'm still puzzling if lamb is ok for him. He was ok until Monday night, after the lamb meal, he looked sick and started to vomit almost the whole night. The things he vomitted was hardly food, just alot of liquid; it was as if he drank too much water after meal that kind. He vomitted about 5 or 6 times until the last one on Tuesday morning. Poops were normal, no blood, no diarrhea. He didn't ask for breakfast so I decided to let his stomach rest and give him beef for dinner. He was ok after dinner..Thank God.

I think I will try lamb again after this week. The lot I bought this time seemed quite oily. I had remove most of the fats. Don't know if this is cause for vomits?

Some of the beef ribs bones are quite tough for him to consume. So far, I've not been able to find beef necks. What other parts can I feed?

Thanks :)

[gmacleod]

How about beef ribs? The small end, of course. They're a consumable bone, and can be fed along with some beef meat or offal. If you just can't get those, then it's OK to feed beef as muscle meat only. Just ensure that you keep a general balance by feeding plenty of other bones.

On lamb, the problem can be just too much fat. Depending on the cut, lamb is an extremely fatty meat and too much of that does tend to cause tummy upsets. I feed it to my dog, but never multiple days in a row - or I get similar problems to what you've got there. So, I'd suggest that you try lamb again, but make sure he gets something like pork for the meals before and after (pork is pretty lean, so it's a good balance). If he's OK with it that way, then you'll know you can feed lamb occassionally. If he still vomits, then it's either too fatty for him or just a meat that doesn't agree with him well.

How are his allergy symptoms coming along? Still a bit of a rash, or has that dissipated more by now?

[ev960d]

Wow Gwyneth, your speed of replying is amazing!! appicon I was so relieved to know that he is not falling sick or something from lamb meal. Ok, I will try lamb again and this time I'll make sure that he has pork meals before and after :D

Oh I notice that his allergy symptoms dissipated more now :) We're both very happy about that. I'm wondering if I should bath him less often or more often. I notice that after his showers, his skin condition gets better then a few days later backslide to itch abit. This week, I delayed his weekly schedule and he looks fine..less itch. Still has a few rash but it's alot better now. At least I can make a count of how many there are haha..Thanks to you Gwyneth!! appicon

There are some strange things about his ears. He has a persistant red patch on his left ear that feels abit dry and has the diameter of about 1cm. Occasionally he will scratch it, but it doesn't bother him much. I notice that he has more ear wax- a little reddish in color. I don't know if it is yeast but it didn't get worst. He doesnt shake his head or scratch his ears uncontrollably.

[gmacleod]

Quite a few dogs have trouble with lamb (although funnily, lamb-based kibble is often less problematic than beef or chicken). I really think it is the amount of fat in the meat. I feed lamb shanks fairly often - which is a very lean cut for lamb, and I note far less problems with that than with, say, ribs or ground lamb meat.

Anyway - if you try feeding it as a one-off meal with very lean meats preceeding and following it, you should quickly find out if it's OK for occassional meals, or if it's just not going to work for him :) It's always a meat I'd avoid feeding for multiple meals in a row though.

It's very good to hear that his allergy symptoms are continuing to subside :) With luck, they'll disappear completely eventually.

Now - on the bathing. My recommendation would be to stop that completely and see what happens. Healthy dogs don't normally need baths more often than once every couple of months - and bathing them more frequently, even with gentle shampoos, strips their coats of oils and can dry out the skin. It is quite possible that the bathing is part of the problem here ;)

You can buy some unscented baby wipes to control any odours and take surface dirt off in the meantime. Obviously, you're not going to want an un-bathed dog for ever. But it really does sound as though the baths are a factor in the skin problems here - and it makes a lot of sense to test that out for sure.

*If* stopping bathing her helps, then for the future you would probably be wise to keep bathing to a minimum. No idea what shampoo you currently use, but a hypo-allergenic one that has no scents or colours is worth a try. Earthbath make some very good ones - especially the oatmeal/aloe and the hypo-allergenic formulas: http://www.earthbath.com/shampoo_pints.html

Do keep us updated :) It sounds as though her progress is very good so far!

[ev960d]

I fed pork for dinner last night and tried lamb again this morning then pork for dinner tonight. He is very good with that arrangement and had no sign of discomfort appicon. You are so right ha ha!! I'm glad that we can safely feed him lamb occassionally :cool:

Currently, I'm using Bark-2-Basic Skin Remedy Shampoo. I've been using that on him since we got him. I'll try to minimise bath and monitor if his condition gets better. Maybe he doesn't need to bath so frequently as he doesn't smell bad after he started raw diets and his teeth are whiter than when he was on kibbles and toothbrushing.

Should I try fish now? How should I go about it? It sounds scary to feed fish with all the bones intact. Can dog really handle fish? Sorry for being such a scardie cat :o haha...

[gmacleod]

Yay! Another meat that he can eat :) So that's pork, beef and lamb so far? Things are looking good :)

Don't worry about the bones in fish. Compared to what he's been eating so far, they're miniscule and very soft. The best sorts of fish to choose for him are small ones - things like sardines, pilchards and mackeral - that are also nice and oily. If the bones really worry you, you can buy those fish canned (and some dogs prefer them that way anyway). The bones are still there, of course, but they've been cooked to the point that they're soft and near-mushy. And of course, canned fish is easy to keep.

Fish is really only something to be fed as an occassional meal - once a week or every two weeks or so. But it's a nice addition to the diet - and oily fish is high in omega 3/6 EFAs, which are very good for skin and coat.

Anyway, all you need to do with the fish is hand it over whole (or open a can and serve, if you choose to go the canned route). He'll have lovely stinky fish breath for half an hour afterward LOL But that should be the extent of it.

After the fish - what's next? What other meats are easy for you to get there, and likely to be something you'll include in his regular diet? Testing chicken should probably wait until last, I think, since that one is under suspicion as an allergy problem... And it's OK to start thinking about trying out some vegetables by now, if you like - same method though, with one single vegetable added at a time so you'll know if there are any reactions what the problem item was. He's got a reasonable range of meats there, so his primary nutritional needs are taken care of.

You can also start adding offal to his diet :) Things like liver, kidney, heart and tripe is great. From those animals that have been tested and found to be OK to feed, of course ;) It is good if offal in general makes up around 10-20% of the total diet, since those are usually the most nutritious parts of a carcass.

[ev960d]

Things are looking good appicon We took him to the dog run yesterday and I rinsed him down with water & towel dried him. His fur is looking great, no odour and only occassional itch. You are right appicon he really doesn't need weekly bath :lol:

After trying fish, there's only chicken and duck left in the market :( . The beef tripe that we get in the market is already washed for human consumption. Is it still good to feed that? Oh he can have vegies already? hmm.I will try spinach because it can turn him into Popeye :lol:

I can get pork offals like intestines and stomach. Are these good food for him?

[gmacleod]

That's great to hear :) We're on the way to an itch-free dog! LOL

Yes, you can certainly introduce some vegetables now if you like. Just one at a time though ;) If he has an aversion to something, we need to know if it's the celery or the brocolli that's the problem! So it's just a case of introducing each veggie in exactly the way as each new meat - by feeding it with something you already know is OK, and just giving a spoonful of the vegetable for two or three days.

Beef tripe isn't that great if it's been washed (actually bleached) for the human market. It's not that it's harmful, but it's not particularly nutritious after the sort of treatment needed to make it white. If unwashed stuff (a revolting brownish-green colour) can't be found, it's probably better to just stick with other types of offal - heart, liver, kidneys, etc.

Pork stomach should be fine (that's actually tripe! LOL), but I think I'd probably pass on the intestine.

[ev960d]

Gosh..Cola loves mackeral. I gave him the whole fish and he ate everything except the head. I think he ate too much? He vomitted quite a few times. This morning, he vomitted fish meat & some black liquid fishy stuff and diarrhea. By afternoon, he was ok..appeared hungry so I gave him lunch instead of breakfast. He's poop is better now. Now, my house smells like a fish market :( trying very hard to eliminate the smell..I guess I won't eat fish for a while haha...

[gmacleod]

Well, it's very good to hear that he likes it :) I hope it won't produce that sort of reaction again though LOL

[ev960d]

I'm back...just started on a new job and the work load is crazy. Last weekend, I fed him 1/4 of a mackeral with his regular pork meal. He is ok with that. No vomit or diarrhea, but he is itching a bit after the meal. So, I'll try mackeral again and monitor closely before putting it in as an 'OK' food to feed. I'm concerned about whether he gets enough nutrients from just pork, lamb & beef meals. Hmm...decided to give him chicken meal starting this Sat. I will feed him the same way as beef/ pork or lamb?

A good news is before the mackeral meal, he is almost 100% clear of all rashes..he still scratches abit (but no rashes)..mostly scratches his face and the sides of his belly. Generally, his rashes are disappearing further appicon

[gmacleod]

Well, that all sounds like very good progress :)

Pork, lamb and beef - plus the occassional fish meal - isn't a bad range, especially if you're including a decent amount of offal in the diet. But if you can increase it further, that's good :) So giving chicken a try seems a pretty good idea at this stage. And yes, same way of introducing it as with any other meat.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes :)

[ev960d]

Hi Gwyneth and friends. Cola has eaten the whole chicken and has no visible reaction to it. I think chicken is ok for him. He was ok until these few days, he has some itch and has some bold patches and broken skin. Doesn't look like his usual allergy spots.

I've given him a bath on Saturday, no change to his usual diet. Took his cushion for a wash (no change to the detergent)...hmm don't think it is chicken..I don't know if it could be the olive oil I've added to his diet 2 days ago..his skin on his ears are scaly, dry, red and itchy. So I suspected that his diet needs some oil. I don't know what to do with his ears. They are red & flaky...What can I do to help? He is so sensitive :(

[gmacleod]

It's good that chicken seems to be OK for him :) In fact, he's got a reasonably wide range of food items now, which is excellent news.

As for the itchy spots - well, that could be the olive oil not being agreeable. It can also be something environmental (and I think we have to conclude that he has some environmental allergies as well as food ones - the great improvement he's had on raw is wonderful, but it's never been a complete100% cure, so that suggests strongly that he has some environmental sensitivities also).

Since he's OK with oily fish like mackeral, how about feeding a bit more of that? That will provide the oil and omega EFAs that the olive oil likewise would have. Or you could try fish oil capsules to add to his food a couple of times a week instead. Olive oil may be a problem for him, but it's likely that fish or fish oil won't be (and each does the same job from a dietary and coat perspective).

Another thing you could test him out on is eggs. Eggs need to be given in moderation (no more than one or two per week), but they're very nutritious and are similarly good for skin and coat. They're most nutritious and beneficial raw, but if your dog doesn't like them or gets a bit of an upset tummy that way (happens in a few cases) then they can be lightly cooked.

Hopefully those things can help with the dry skin. If not, it can still be worth considering the allergy testing to see what environmental issues can be identified. I'd also go as easy as possible on the bathing, and use an unscented shampoo - I think we already managed to work out that that's a contributor to his skin problems.

[ev960d]

Thanks Gwyneth :) I've bought him human grade fish oil capsules today, just in case he can't eat it, we can :lol: It's 1000mg per capsule. I thought of feeding him once a day hope it's just nice?

Gave him a raw egg last night and he seems ok with that. Just checked his skin, hmm...good it didnt get worst. Looks like his condition is stablised.

[gmacleod]

Mmm - some reasonably large doses of fish oil (eg. a daily tablet) at the outset can be OK, but in the longer term, once or twice a week will probably be better and quite sufficient. Like most things, a little is very beneficial but a lot (excess) can be as bad as deficiency. Still, it will be interesting to see if that solves his ear/skin problems. Hopefully so! :)

[ev960d]

Hi Gwyneth I have some good news..and strange discovery...I changed his shampoo to Earthbath, Oatmeal & Aloe Shampoo. He itch lesser, this morning I checked in the skin in between his toes is clearing up. Quite obviously he is reacting to his previous shampoo. I'm glad with the shampoo appicon Thanks Gwyneth for the recommendations.

I'm still giving him 1 tablet of fish oil capsule (1000mg) per day. The strange discovery is, we tried applying some vaseline on his ears daily and that helped him. He is scratching his ears less often and not so flaky now. Still has some spots but I think he is resting much better now. At least he can sleep through the night.

[gmacleod]

Well, that is good news :) It did seem likely that the bathing was at least a part of the problem! Good that you've found an alternative that doesn't bother him.

As for the vaseline - perhaps the protective barrier it provides? Well, however it is helping, hopefully it will give those ears a chance to heal up.