Quite concerning...

[slakker]

Our little Belzie started having loose stoll yesterday... her first BM in the morning started off firm then tapered into a loose movement. Since then, it's been the consistency of thick soup. We have a doctors appontment tomorrow, but wouldn't mind any comments or suggestions. I read through many different threads on "loose stool" but we're still very anxious over the situation (being new puppy owners and all).

We have had her on the same diet for a couple of weeks since we got home from the breeders. They were feeding her Puppy Chow and we migrated her to Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice kibble (softened with some water). We also give her commercial chicken treats for training and Greenies for her teething. But having read some of the threads on Greenies just now, I'm taking those AWAY!

By all accounts, her behavious is still the same... very active and happy-go-lucky... except trying to walk her when it's cold out... she looks at us like we're crazy! I can hear her little brain go, "what are you guys... nuts??? it's frezzing out here!" :lol:

[EllieMae]

NO GREENIES! Please read other posts on Greenies and how horrible they are. Ellie had the same thing happen. Her breeders were feeding Puppy Chow and we switched her to Nutro Lamb and rice and she started to get sick, so after good advice, we switched to Holistic Blend Chicken and Vegetables which has no preservatives and other junk that dogs don't need. My vet suggested Pepto Bismol, but Ellie didn't like it. As soon as we switched food (I did a fast switch too!) She was immediatly better. Look for the post that says Nutro Natural Choice Puppy food and read the reply, he is a very educated person and very helpful! Good luck.

[EllieMae]

Sorry it was Lilydog that recommended the post by GMcleod, check it out.

[wendykei]

Sounds like a diet-related diarrhea... He was originally being fed Eukanuba by his breeder, but when I brought him home, I found that the food actually made him have diarrhea AND also throw up. (As a new puppy owner, I was a bit panicked about his vomiting and took him to the emergency vet after hours one night. To make a long story short, it took a $1000 vet bill to find out that the kibble just didn't agree with his stomach.) After reading up on this board, I chose to switch him to California Natural canned chicken & brown rice. A couple of times, I've tried to introduce California Natural kibble, but even that gives him milkshake consistency poops, so I've given up. Maybe eventually I'll try to get him to 50% on kibble, but I'm so scared that he'll get the milkshake-like diarrhea, so we will stick with canned food for the time being.

[imogene]

She is allert and hyperactive like ususal. She has been trying to play with Gabriel - she keeps trying to give him her mouse. We didn't have any problems until we started blending the Eukanuba naturals with Healthwise Chicken and Bron Rice Formula Pupppy Food, which is made by the same company as Innova. I had been doing the whole gradual switch over - until she started to show signs of dietary distress. Her breakfast was dry kibble - and her afternoon poop was almost back to normal. Is is possible she has had a food reaction to something else - we tried using peanutbutter as a treat last week - it was the natural/organic kind - but could she be having an alleric reaction to the peanutbutter?

I am not a nutritionalist, but is anyone familliar with Eukanuba Naturals. From the nutritional information on the pakages it seem pretty simmilar to the HealthWise

[imogene]

She is allert and hyperactive like ususal. She has been trying to play with Gabriel - she keeps bringing him her mouse.

As far as her food - We didn't have any problems until we started blending the Eukanuba® Natural Lamb & Rice™ Puppy Formula with Healthwise Chicken and Brown Rice Formula Pupppy Food, which is made by the same company as Innova. I had been doing the whole gradual switch over - until she started to show signs of dietary distress. Her breakfast was dry kibble (Befor I had been soaking 2tbs in watter and adding it to her food)- and her afternoon poop was almost back to normal. Is is possible she has had a food reaction to something else - we tried using peanutbutter as a treat last week - it was the natural/organic kind - but could she be having an alleric reaction to the peanutbutter?

I am not a nutritionalist, but is anyone familliar with Eukanuba® Natural Lamb & Rice™ Puppy Formula. From the nutritional information on the pakages it seem pretty simmilar to the Healthwise. I know members on these board are not thirlled with Eukanuba in gerneral - but is anyone familliar with Eukanuba Natural. I am assuming it is much better for her than Puppy Chow, but should we keep trying the Healthwise?

Anyway just thought I would update. Being a puppy owner has as much angst as joy.

[ashley1135]

You're so right about the trials of having a new puppy! When I brought my pup home, some of the members on the site recommended a tablespoon of canned pumpkin to firm up his stools. It really helped as a temporary fix, but ultimately it was the Nutro Lamb and Rice that he was eating that was the problem. I can't tell you much about your lamb and rice brand, but there are some experts on the site that I'm sure can. I does have to be better than puppy chow, but then again, that isn't saying much. I soaked some of that puppy chow in water overnight a few years back to see what was in it...hair/fur and all kinds of junk floated out. YUCK! The Innova line of products was recommended to me as one of the best out there, though the EVO with it's super high protein content I was told shouldn't be fed to puppies. As far as the peanut butter, I highly doubt an allergy is to blame, but there seem to be several members w/ very sensitive dogs. Any new food can upset the stomach so just keep tabs on what Belzie eats and when. Good luck!

[Martina]

For your immediate diarrhea issue - make sure she keeps taking in liquid so she doesn't dehydrate. As puppies they're so small that even a couple of hours of the big D can dehydrate them. Re-hydrating (if needed) is not a big deal and not scary, so don't worry. My Lola is very succeptible to trash can stomach - which causes puking and diarrhea. So she had to rehydrated twice now. But, each time before I got her in for our vet appt, I was told to give her pepto-bismol to try to control the diarrhea and vomiting.

It could very easily be the change in diet or a food allergy. That's what trash can stomach is - severe gastric distress due to ingesting something ucky.

For your peace of mind, I hope that it turns out to be an easy 'cure.' Heavens knows I've had my fair share of vet emergencies ;) . And, as long as she keeps up her puppy-like behavior, that's a great sign! Let us know what your vet says ...

[franp]

A suggestion for Pepto Bismol..since I have worn it many times..Get the caplets..Cut one in half and hide it in a piece of cheese..

There is NO way to get the liquid into a pup...More lands up on the floor,on me/you ,on the dog. But NOT in the dog...where it belongs..And Dari KNOWS what a baby syringe is.. She sees is and is GONE..

[imogene]

Just curious,

But is it actually the big D if the puppy can still control her bowel movements? Her poo is very liquidy, and she has had to go more often, but she seems to have control she only goes every 5 or so hours?

Thanks everyone for your imput- she is seeing her docotor tomarrow

[wendykei]

A suggestion for Pepto Bismol..since I have worn it many times..Get the caplets..Cut one in half and hide it in a piece of cheese..

There is NO way to get the liquid into a pup...More lands up on the floor,on me/you ,on the dog. But NOT in the dog...where it belongs..And Dari KNOWS what a baby syringe is.. She sees is and is GONE..

Actually, I've tricked Sidney into taking meds through a syringe by putting just a dab of peanut butter on the end. And he loves it! But you may not want to feed your pup peanut butter if diarrhea/diet is a concern.

Also, I feed Sidney pumpkin as a general rule. It helps with his stool under normal circumstances, but when he has bad diarrhea there's no trick in the book. It definitely sounds like it's the result of the transition to a new diet... We've been through it several times.

[EllieMae]

She is allert and hyperactive like ususal.
Ellie was the EXACT same, but she would throw up, have diareah and asthma like attacks on the old food. I did a fast switch because she wouldn't eat the old food anyway, I took that as a hint! And her loose stools went away within 1 day and she is in great health now...I don't feed her ANY treats, other then carrots. I train her with her food and she loves it. My biggest mistake was thinking that just because her food was expensive then it must be good, it doesn't! Always read the label and stay away from grains, preservatives and excessive salt.

[imogene]

Hey everyone,

I took Belize to her doctor today. She is parasite free- but has a yeast infection in her ears which her vet attributed to the climate change - (it has been very wet and cold here). Belize has no feaver- and has gained almost 2/3rd of a pound in the last 2 weeks. With the combination of the yeast infection, teething and liquid poops it is amazing that Belize is still her happy-go-lucky self. The docotor also thinks she ate something that is irritating and hard to pass. We are putting her on chicken and white rice for atleast the next 48 hours. Hopefully that will help with the loose stool.

Our vet is very good and has experience with vet. hollistic medicine and accupunture. She had some great ideas for us. She recomened putting a slice of ginger in the rice while it's cooking. I know that ginger is good for stomach maladies, but didn't occur to me until she mentioned it. She also said that if the dog will drink it try camomile or peperment tea. It will help with hydration plus the both herbs are known for helping with calming and stomach issues. It might be a good alternative to Pepto-Bismol - provide our dogs don't turn their non-existant noses up at it.

The vet also recomended Virbac C.E.T Dentistry Oral Hygiene Chews for her teething. They are softer than Nylabones and highly digestible alternatives to Greenies she seems to like the one I gave her.

Thanks again for all the advice - we will keep you updated. Oh and Samia - slakker and I have read most of your threads. I am also looking for the food that you mentioned (the Canidae)- I am having trouble finding a retailer in Western Canada. I am going to see how it goes - If we continue to have issues with her diet, I may try keeping her on home cooked food.

[EllieMae]

I use Holistic Blend Chicken and Vegetable for Ellie Mae and she does great on it. If I can get it in my little town, I am sure that it is easy to find!

[imogene]

I think I forgot to mention that our Vet gave us a small perscription of Antibiotics. Belzie is such a freaky dog. She loves her medicine, so much that she sits pretty, and lets us squirt the stuff in her mouth. She also loves peppermint tea. Thanks for the advice on the dental chew, but I trust our vet. So far the homemade meals are working. Our little "piglet" loves the homemade meals, and whines and complains for more. She is so cute that it is hard to resist giving her a little extra. I am begining to wonder if part of her digestive problems stem from glutony. She "loves" her food, but I worry that she is trying to eat too much to fast. When we first go her she would only eat her kibble from my hands and now she eats everything within minutes.

Oh we discovered one more strange things. Belize does not like to walk, if she can see our house. It is next to imposible to go for a walk if she can see our house - but if we take a drive - or carry her our of sight of the house she will walk fine, and even enjoy herself. Like I said she is a feak.

Slakker and I are going to check-out the Bosley's tomarrow. Thanks for the recomendation. Oh and Happy Holidays.

[franp]

I . Thanks for the advice on the dental chew, but I trust our vet.


You may trust your Vet , but they are not infallible.. Rawhide is VERY dangerous..and can KILLL your dog..

Vets also sell Greenies ,which according to the American Vetinary Journal are the third most common cause of intestinal blockage..Guess what is the second? RAWHIDE...

Ask your dogs' breeder about rawhide..How dangerous it is...It can block the intestines and cause peritonitis and kill your dog...

[franp]

Some interesting reading



http://www.webguru.com/rawhide-bones-dog.htm

[franp]

Imogene please read this thread about giving your dog tea...

It is VERY important...



http://www.bulldogworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1466&highlight=herbal

[gmacleod]

I am not a nutritionalist, but is anyone familliar with Eukanuba® Natural Lamb & Rice™ Puppy Formula. From the nutritional information on the pakages it seem pretty simmilar to the Healthwise.

No, the Eukanuba Natural is nothing like the Healthwise ;) Really, really nothing like it. The Healthwise is a far superior product. Here are the ingredient lists, and a commentary:

Eukanuba Natural Lamb & Rice
Lamb, Brewers Rice, Corn Meal, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Dried Egg Product, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins....., Minerals....., DLMethionine, Monosodium Phosphate, Marigold Extract (source of lutein), Flax Meal, Rosemary Extract.

The first thing you should note about dog food ingredient labels is that the ingredients are required to be listed in order of weight. The further up the ingredient list an ingredient is, then the more there is of it. Kind of ;) Read on...

The first ingredient in this food is lamb. That's fine. But it is lamb inclusive of it's water content (as opposed to a dry meal). Water makes up about 80% of meat in it's natural state, and once the water is removed (as it must be to make kibble) this particular ingredient is going to weigh about 20% of what it did in the natural state. Do you suppose that it is really the first ingredient in the food? Actually, that is extremely unlikely. More likely it is truely the fourth or fifth.

Now that would not be of the slightest concern if the second ingredient in the food were another meat, in meal form. But it isn't. It's a grain. So what we can conclude immediately is that there is not a great deal of actual meat in this food. And that is a very bad thing to see in a dog food. Dogs are carnivores - their food needs to be based on meat, not on grains (for which they have absolutely no evolved need at all and don't digest well).

The second ingredient (really the primary ingredient) is Brewers rice. Now brewers rice is a very low quality product - a spent grain that is actually a by-product of the alcohol industry. The AAFCO definition of brewers rice is "the dried extracted residue of rice resulting from the manufacture of wort (liquid portion of malted grain) or beer and may contain pulverized dried spent hops in an amount not to exceed 3 percent."

That's the main ingredient in the food. A spent grain. Really, not very nutritious for your puppy ;)

Next up is corn meal. Well, corn is one of those cheap grains that often form the basis of the lowest quality dog foods (because it's cheap). But unfortunately, it tends to cause a lot of digestive and allergy problems for dogs. Which is why the premium food manufacturers won't use it.

Fish meal is potentially OK. It's a meat product, and in meal form - so you can be sure it is truely the fourth ingredient in the food. BUT: there is a significant issue around fish meal in dog food. In the US in particular, fish destined for meal is usually treated with Ethoxyquin - which is a carcinogenic chemical preservative banned from use in the human food chain (precisely because it is carcinogenic). That is not required to be disclosed on the dog food label, because the dog food manufacturer did not add the chemicals. So if you're feeding a food with fish in it, you should check whether or not the manufacturer guarantees to be using Ethoxyquin-free sources (ie. farmed fish). Proctor & Gamble (makers of Eukanuba) provide no such guarantee. It is virtually a certainty, therefore, that the fish has been treated with that chemical (it is a US coastguard requirement for ocean-caught fish).

Dried egg product is valueless. Whole eggs would have been nice.

No problem with sorghum. But beet pulp is a problem. It is a controversial ingredient that some food manufacturers claim is a good source of fibre. Others claim that it is a waste ingredient added to dog food to slow down the decomposition of rancid fats - and that causes stress to the dog's liver and kidneys in the process. Whichever version you choose to believe, beet pulp is certainly a waste product - being the residue left over from the extraction of sugar from sugar beets. And it causes a lot of digestive and allergy problems in dogs. If you happen to have a dog that suffers from yeast infections (which you do), you should avoid foods that contain beet pulp as the sugar in it will feed the yeast (ie. it causes or exacerbates yeast infections).

So that's the Eukanuba. Not a good food at all, even if there are worse.

Here's the Healthwise:
Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal/Rolled Oats, Chicken Fat, Flaxseed Meal, Natural Flavors, Herring Oil, Avocado Oil, Garlic, Dried Kelp, Vitamins/Minerals

First ingredient is a named meat source - and in meal form (ie. water content already removed), so we can be certain that it is the true first ingredient in the food.

Rice and oatmeal are grains, but they're decent quality grains that are not noted for commonly causing digestive or allergy problems.

All foods have to have some fat in them, and here we have chicken fat. The only complaint I'd make about that is that studies into bloat in large breed dogs have shown that a fat in the first four ingredients in a dry dog food is a factor that increases the risk of bloat occuring. A frenchie isn't a large breed dog, of course, and isn't a breed especially prone to bloat. But whether or not it creates a risk for smaller breeds is untested. Not necessarily a concern, but worth noting all the same.

Those are the major ingredients (ie. the bulk) of this food. The only real complaint I'd make about it (beyond noting the fat issue) is that there is only one meat product in the food. It is impossible to be reasonably certain that there is a reasonable amount of meat in the food. It's better than the Eukanuba, for sure, but still not what you'd expect from a premium product.

I think Naturapet make some very good foods. But this one is a mid-range product (and they don't promote it as a premium product either). Their Innova (not EVO for a puppy) or California Natural brands are very much better.

Anyway. Regardless of all that, it seems quite clear that the foods you're currently feeding her don't agree with her system very well at all. Hard to say which one is to blame - certainly the Eukanuba contains a lot more ingredients likely to be the cause of the problem, and it can take some time for the effects of a food to be apparent (meaning that just because she ate it for a few weeks without issue doesn't mean that it's not the cause).

I would actually recommend ditching both foods and choosing something else that has a higher meat content without the nasty ingredients. How about trying something like Naturapet's California Natural Lamb/rice (just in case the chicken in the Healthwise is the problem)?

[imogene]

Thanks for all the advise.
Belzie is doing really well.

Franp re:
Imogene please read this thread about giving your dog tea...

It is VERY important...

I would never give my pets cafine, and I would never give Belzie something that I didn't know where it came from. I don't even drink tea that comes in teabags. The peperment tea I gave her is organic loose tea (NOTHING BUT MINT), brewed with pure water at the right temperature for exactly 4 minutes and then strained (so no bacterial issue) and no bleach or chemical contamination from teabags.When it comes to tea I am a bit of a fanatic. I put a bowl with some in it down for her she lapped some and I took it away. I didn't giver her unlimited acess to it or replace her water with it. It seems funny to me that you would respond so passionately to recomendation of peppermint tea, and not to petobismal. I would think the chemicals in the Peto Bismal and the issues with dossage would be potentially more hazzarous than a bit of mint and hot water.

Also I am sorry that you have had bad experience with Vets. We have used our vet for the last 6 years- and I belive her to be exceptional, our orignal vet was not which is why we are no longer patients. We might be new to owning a FB, but we are not new to having pets.

gmacloud thank you for answering my question regarding the foods. There is so much information on both lables that we were a bit overwhelmed. Belzie didn't do well with the HealthWise so we are trying her on Canidae which Samia recomened. We gave her about a tablespoon with her chicken and rice mix - so far no problems :) I am planning on gradually increasing the amount of kibble over the next 2 weeks.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[franp]

Thanks for all the advise.
Belzie is doing really well.

Franp re:


I would never give my pets cafine, and I would never give Belzie something that I didn't know where it came from. I don't even drink tea that comes in teabags. The peperment tea I gave her is organic loose tea (NOTHING BUT MINT), brewed with pure water at the right temperature for exactly 4 minutes and then strained (so no bacterial issue) and no bleach or chemical contamination from teabags.When it comes to tea I am a bit of a fanatic. I put a bowl with some in it down for her she lapped some and I took it away. I didn't giver her unlimited acess to it or replace her water with it. It seems funny to me that you would respond so passionately to recomendation of peppermint tea, and not to petobismal. I would think the chemicals in the Peto Bismal and the issues with dossage would be potentially more hazzarous than a bit of mint and hot water.

Also I am sorry that you have had bad experience with Vets. We have used our vet for the last 6 years- and I belive her to be exceptional, our orignal vet was not which is why we are no longer patients. We might be new to owning a FB, but we are not new to having pets.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Imogene,
I gave you the information about the tea JUST IN CASE.. When Gwyneth posted it, it was all new to me.. Tea was not something I had ever thought of to give my dog..The dangers of it were a surprise..
So, as I was not aware, I thought that you might possibly be unaware as well. Better safe than sorry..It is wonderful that you are so knowledgable, I look forward to you sharing your experience with us..
As for a bad experience with Vets,, no.. I have gone to the same Vet for 25 years.. We work together... But no one can keep up on everything...