blood in his poo - Bones?

[tati]

Hi!!

I am a bit scared... I am feeding my frenchie chicken carcass, wings, beff muscle and just a bit of ox heart. Last poo had a small amount of blood in it. Could be the bones? He is almost a week in the raw diet. :confused:

I need help, please...

[gmacleod]

I don't think it's anything to worry too much about :) Without wishing to diminish your problem at all, a good general "rule of thumb" about blood in dog's stools is that small amounts of bright red blood are nothing to worry about. It is fresh blood and almost certainly caused by an irritation to the colon. So that could indeed be small bits of bone, if there were any in the stool. Or anything else that has mildly irritated his intestine.

Dark blood (near black in colour), especially large amounts of it, is a sign of a more serious problem and cause for an immediate trip to the vet.

[tati]

gemacleod,

I feel much better now, thank you! :) I was worried... but it is only a small amount of fresh blood and also there were small bits of bones. aww releaf!! Anything to help to his colon irritation?

[gmacleod]

It is likely just to heal up on it's own :) You're really talking minor irritation there, most likely as the bits of bone passed.

Since he's so new to raw food - but is clearly past the stage of having to learn to chew, you might find that ditching the chicken wings from his diet would help. Wings are a wonderfully convenient food item for teaching dogs new to raw about how to chew their food - a nice size and shape for you to hold one end while the dog chews the other. But on the downside, wings are actually one of the hardest parts of a chicken to digest - that's the most dense bone in a chicken carcass (surprising, isn't it? But true).

Anyway - sometimes it takes a little time for dogs systems to get used to digesting bone. And that's probably the reason he's passing little bits of it undigested. Sooo - to make things a bit easier for him, you could ditch the chicken wings for now and just feed the other parts of chicken carcasses, muscle meats and offal (ie. everything you're currently feeding minus the wings). That will probably take care of the issue of him passing any little bits of bone in the first place :)

[tati]

OK, I will change it for chicken necks then ...

Thanks again and a goodnight for you!

By the way, I really want to see the match Brazil-England in Germany 2006 world cup (football) :)

[tati]

Hi everybody!

The poo is fixed.I did a fast for a meal and then the other meal I gave him only breast chicken. He ate but not much.

Last night I gave him breast chicken again and a little piece of chicken liver. He refused it, then I tried to give a ground ox muscle and also refused it. This morning again, I tried a chicken breast and he eat just a very little pieces with no enthusiasm. And he is itching since last evening.

I am worried because he is losing weight...

Please, someone to help me?

[gmacleod]

I would be more inclined to give him chicken necks than breast (or at least a mixture of the two - phosphorous in meat needs to be balanced by calcium in bone).

A dog not wishing to eat a meal or two is not of itself cause for concern. There can be any number of causes, most of them benign. He will eat when he's ready. If you think he has a bit of an upset tummy, you could try him on a little boiled chicken and rice. If that brings his appetitie back up, then you're fine to continue with the raw.

[tati]

I did what you said and he got his meal (not much). I gave him rise and chicken.Yes, He is an upset tummy, diharrea ...

I will see what happen today... Now he is playing and does not look like a sick boy. :cool:

Untill when to keep him on rise/chicken? Is it not difficult to go back to the raws after that cooked food?

Thank you very much.

[gmacleod]

Well, if it's an upset tummy the boiled chicken/rice will usually clear things up in just a couple of meals (or at least within a couple of days). So it's not long that you're feeding cooked food anyway.

But no, there usually is no issue with reverting to raw (not like there is with reverting to kibble). Raw food is generally extremely easily digestible - the exceptions are large or dense bones, and chicken skin/fat. So I'd avoid feeding a lot of chicken skin for a day or two (and, actually, in general) and restrict the bones to the easily-digestible ones such as chicken necks and backs for a few days.

[tati]

He is eating like a good boy again, happy! but still on diharrea. I will keep rice/chicken till he diaharrea stops.

Poor puppy, he is on detox... a lot of wax on his ears and also itching a bit. My VET hates the raw diet :mad: ... and I am sure that in the city I live no one will accept what I am doing... so, you are helping me a lot.:)

Can I give the chicken on raw mixed to the cooked rice?

Thanks!!

[gmacleod]

Well, you probably could give the chicken raw with the cooked rice... but the dog might not be too keen on the rice portion in that case. Cooking the two together flavours the rice and makes it a bit more appealing.

Still, hopefully his stool will firm up and he'll be back on raw food alone within a couple of days :)

[tati]

The stool is not liquid as before, but still very very soft. He is killing us with gases.. bombs!! oh god what a bad smell, grr...

I gave him chicken necks and rice, everything cooked. Is it not dangerous to cook that little neck bones?

I have 2 more dogs (11 years old and 12 month old), they are on raw and doing very well. Only the frenchie has problems...

Thank you!!

[gmacleod]

No, I would not cook the bones. If you're going to feed him chicken necks, then they need to be raw. Chicken boiled up with rice should be meat only (bones need to be removed, either before or after cooking). An alternative would be ground beef (hamburger/mince) with rice, or even cottage cheese and rice. All of those are suitable for short-term only though (no bones = no calcium in the diet).

Still, if his appetite is largely back to normal, then you could probably move back to the raw food soon anyway. In that case, chicken necks are just fine as they'll be raw.

Incidentally, for the gas you could try giving him a little bit of plain natural yoghurt with his food. The sort that has no sugar added, but has live bacterial cultures in it, like acidophillous and bifidous. Those bacterial cultures help a lot with digestion and with keeping gas under control. Just a tablespoon daily is enough :)

[tati]

I feded him just with cooked meat chicken and rice, no bones. Last meal i I tried yogurt and he refused it.. ... only ate rice/chicken (more chicken than rice, he prefered the meat)... Of course he gave me back 1000 bombs as a gift. :eek:

Tomorrow I will try chicken necks... is it ok? I will keep feeding only chicken for the next meals...

Thanks again! :)

[gmacleod]

What is his stool like now? Has it firmed back up yet?

If things are better, then yes, I think putting him back onto the raw food is probably wise by now. If it's still mostly diarrhoea, then another day or so on chicken/rice probably won't hurt (that's a pretty bland diet).

[tati]

gmacleod: This morning he woke up very early, vomited 2 times (Kind of white/yellow liquid) and then did a nice poo...
As a breakfast I tried to give him rice/chicken, didnt eat much. :( I will try it again later.

Lilydog: Yes, gmacleod is helping my pup and I very much. I have no words... only thanks thanks thanks...

I will try to get that capsules of acidopholus and bifidous asap. Thank you , Lilydog!

[gmacleod]

Good - he starts to sound better :) Stool back to normal is a very good sign.

As for the vomitting - yellow bile like that in the mornings is usually a sign that the pup's tummy has been empty for too long, rather than a problem with the food.

It's not really surprising his tummy is empty since he has been off his food. But the downside, of course, is that it makes him feel nauseous and so he doesn't want to eat... If it continues, things you can try are either feeding him three times a day instead of two (same amount of food, just split into three meals instead of two) or else giving him a small snack last thing at night, so that he has something in his tummy. If he seems nauseous in the morning, then getting him to eat something little (even a small piece of bread or biscuit) half an hour before you try to give him breakfast can often help.

Anyway - since he did eat a little of the chicken/rice this morning, then it's likely that that will make him feel a bit better soon and he should be happy enough to eat some more later :)

With his stools back to normal, I think you'd be fine to move him back to his raw food any time you like :) I'd just avoid parts like chicken wings for now, since the bones are so dense and they have such a lot of skin compared to meat on them (both would be fairly hard for him to digest - better to stick to the simple things like chicken necks etc for now).

[tati]

I have a question,

They will manipulate that capsule for us... they want to know the quantity of acidopholus and bifidous has to put in each capsule.

Is it good also to add bulgaricus and sporogene or only acidopholus and bifidous?

Thanks

[tati]

gmacleod:

I give him 3 small meals per day, sometimes 4...

Ok, then you think its good to try chicken neck for the next meal?

And the bacilus capsulas? Can I buy it?

[gmacleod]

3 or 4 meals per day sounds just fine. Most likely the vomiting bile is because he hasn't eaten very much lately. If that's the reason, then it should go away when he starts eating a normal amount again.

Since his stool is back to normal, then yes, I think it's fine to give him a meal of chicken necks now. Do they still have skin on, or is it already removed? If they still have a lot of skin, it might be worth trying to take a bit of that off. The skin/fat on chicken isn't very easy for dogs to digest.

I know it gives my dog some pretty bad gas and tummy upsets, so I try to limit the amount he gets. Some fat is necessary in the diet, of course, but it needs to be in moderation.

As for the bacilus capsules, yes, absolutely. And you don't need to limit that to acidophilous and bifidous. Here's a link to a pet probiotic that lists it's approximate content. If you've got the option, emulating it's bacterial culture content (approximately) would work well (then you can also use the same approximate dosage): http://www.flintriver.com/Probiotics-Liquid-Rescue.htm

[tati]

gmacleod:

Yes, the chicken necks has skin, I took it out (90%) for now...and gave him 2 necks for snack, he ates it :) Then, no more chicken/rice? Only necks for today?

They could can make that rescue probiotic formula with that bacilus and also the vitamines. Is it ok to make it? Or only the bacilus culture?

He is really getting better, his stool looks normal and no more vomits... appicon

Thanks , thanks and .... thanks...

[gmacleod]

Yes, I think just the chicken necks will be fine today. Now that his stool has firmed back up, there's no need for the chicken/rice any longer.

Chicken necks and other portions should be fine to feed him from now. The only things I'd watch are the amount of skin/fat he gets (and that may be something you have to watch/limit on a permanent basis - the amount of gas he has is a bit of an indicator that he would not cope well with a great deal of fat. My guy is similar, so I just make sure he doesn't get too much skin, and then we're both happy), and that the bones he gets aren't too dense (avoid wings).

As for the supplement - personally, I think I'd just ask for the bacilus cultures. Then it becomes something that you can give him on a long term basis. With all the vitamins added, it isn't really a daily supplement, but one for the short-term treatment of sick/stressed animals. Since your pup doesn't appear to like yoghurt, the point of getting this made up is to create something that he can have daily to aid his digestion - a dietary vitamin supplement isn't required.

[tati]

OK, they will make only bacilus cultures capsulated ( Lactobacillus acidophilus,Lactobacillus casei,Streptococcus faecium and Saccharomyces cerevisiae) - That other one, the rescue, I think I will take it for me , because I was really stressed. hehe

But gmacleod tell me, Should I keep him on chicken for whole week? necks, breast and back, is it ok?

No gases anymore since I limited chicken fat/skin...

Another good new: I found a homeopatic VET, I hope he could help me in a good way when I need. The other VET, hummm... she is completly crazy, wanted to give him many medicines and said me to go back urgent to Hills Sience Diet.

I hope he will be ok and I will not disturb you as I did till now!

Thank you very very much! appicon Also I learned a bit more English too! :) rice = right - rise=wrong hhehe My frenchie and his friends (the other 2 dogs/ and I) are sending you a bigggg hug from Brazil!! :)

[gmacleod]

Chicken for the whole week should be fine. I doubt that there would be a problem with including other meats as well - since I think the problem was a mix of too dense bones and too much skin/fat (and the disappearance of his gas would tend to indicate that). But if you prefer to play safe for a little while, then just feed chicken for the rest of the week :) You can start to add other meats back into his diet next week.

Good to hear about the homeopathic vet :) It's always good to have alternative viewpoints.

PS: your English is a heck of a lot better than my Portugese :D

[tati]

gmacleod: I am here sooner that I want to be... :(

Yestarday I gave him only chicken necks... After that nice poo in the morning everything was normal till 7pm when I feeded him the 3th meal, then his stool was diarrhea again. At 9pm I gave him 2 necks mixed with a bit of bacilus culture and 2 hours later he vomited everything, the necks looked very fresh as he didnt digest even a little of it.

This morning he wokes up early and vomiting that same yellow/white liquid, after 10 min i gave him a little bit of bread.

He does not look sad... he is playing with our other dogs right now.
20 days ago he got anti worms medicine, so it is not worms.
No fat/skin in his meals...
Maybe he is alergic to chicken or to the probiotics... I dont know.. No, no, he started with diahrrea before... :(

I made a rice/chicken and i will give him in a while!

Please, I need your help again!

[tati]

Just to see what happen I puted 1/4 of teaspoon of probiotics in his rice/chicken , he refused, didnt eat. Then I tried without probiotics and he ates, not much but didnt refused like before...

[gmacleod]

Bummer!

I don't think he's likely to be alllergic to chicken. I would consider it likely - except that he appears to be fine with the chicken/rice. If he were allergic to chicken, we'd have to expect him to have a problem with the chicken/rice mixture as well... Well, lets see how effective chicken/rice is at firming up the stools this time. If it doesn't help much, then maybe we'd have to conclude that chicken isn't a good meat for him.

Another possibility is that the problem is the bones still. Chicken necks aren't excessively dense, so I'd have expected him to digest those OK. But perhaps not.

What may be worth trying is either a ground meat mix - that still includes bone, but ground up to help him digest it. Or alternatively, a greater proportion of boneless meat versus meaty bones (eg. meals that are mostly boneless meat, with just a little bit of chicken necks in there). In both cases, the meals should be easier on his tummy because there is less bone in there.

Having said all that, it might be worthwhile trying him on a different meat than chicken instead. Something like lamb or beef may possibly suit him better if it's readily available to you.

Overall, it sounds very much as though the problem is that he's having trouble digesting the bones. Or at least, large amounts of bone (since he got through five (?) meals without issue). He vomitted his last meal of necks undigested, and then vomitted in the morning also - but that last one is likely to have been due to an empty stomach (bile).

Sooo - it makes sense to try reducing the overall amount of bone he's getting (more meat, less bone in his meals), or to feed it in a form where his tummy has less work to do (ie. ground). See if that makes a difference for him.

Not sure about the probiotic. But it's probably worth stopping giving that for a day or so (it may not be the cause, but it doesn't appear to be helping anyway). One other thing is to always ensure that his meat is close to room temperature before feeding (not straight out the fridge) - some dogs are sensitive to temperature.

[tati]

I think you are right, maybe it is the bones...

I forgot to tell you about the morning stool, he did a normal poo after that bilis water; For his breakfast as I told you , he ates rice/chicken, a very small amount of it. Didnd make a poo yet and no vomits till now

It is easy for me to buy pork, chicken and fish.. But for the next meal, lunch, I think it is better to keep feeding chicken. I want to know why he does not digest it good. I will try to give him what you said: boneless chicken and a small amount of chicken necks, everything cuted in small pieces. ( I dont have yet that stuff to ground, I will buy it when I have money for).

Ok, I will not give protibiotic for now... and the meal will be in the room temperature...

Thank you very much, gmacleod

[tati]

Hi,

I got that machine... so I gave him a greater proportion of boneless meat and just one ground chicken neck, in 4 small meals during yestarday.

He did a better stool ( soft but not diarrhea) , but he woke up 3am vomiting that yellow liquid mixed with little bone pieces, and i did it ground..

I dont know what I have to do anymore...

Maybe kibble? The problem is that in Brazil I cant buy a natural kind of kibble...ONly stuff like eukanuba, hills, purina, royal canin...

I am very sad...

[gmacleod]

That is a shame :( And it would seem at least that the problem is digesting bone... but that's a pretty necessary part of the diet, so you can't really leave it out.

Two things you could try if you still want to try raw food: one is switching to a different meat than chicken, and see whether things are better (even though it doesn't seem the most likely explanation, it is still possible that the problem is a sensitivity to chicken). The second would be to replace the bone content of his food with bone meal (you can buy bone meal, which is essentially powdered bone, in jars or tins).

If you've had enough of raw, and feel you need to go back to kibble, then that's not the end of the world. One of the big problems with most kibbles though, is the low amount of meat they contain - especially the lower quality ones. But you could always feed a mix of foods ;) (I don't actually mean raw meat and kibble mixed together, I mean some meals raw and some kibble. If the first couple of meals in the day were raw, but his last meal at night was kibble, that might get around the vomitting problem).

And the last option is homecooking - though it's more work and time consuming. Homecooking is largely a case of feeding meat and offal just as you would with a raw diet, except that it is boneless and you're cooking the food (eg. a casserole or stew). You can't cook bones though, so again you'd need to be adding bone meal to the diet to compensate that. This is another type of diet that could be fed in conjunction with either kibble or with raw.

Anyway, those are other options. Worth having a think about.

[tati]

I dont want to feed trash to my bullie....I will not give up for now... I tried beef muscle and a beef bone. I will see what happen... (small amount, more meat and less bone)

Is it egg shell difficult to digest?

Tomorrow I will give you a feedback...

Ciao! Thanks!

[gmacleod]

appicon appicon Good for you! It may well be that different meats will suit him better, and you'll only ever find that out by trying them :)

Egg shell isn't difficult to digest, and you can certainly give him some of that. You'd probably have to crumble it up into small pieces to get him to eat it though (or hide it in the rest of his food) - egg shells aren't as interesting as bones to eat ;) If you give him the actual egg as well you need to go easy on how many he gets though (especially the white part) - two per week is quite enough.

[tati]

Hi,
Day 15:
He got beef/bone (piece of beef/bone around it) 3 times, he liked it. 150 gr each meal, small. His last meal, #4, less amount than before, like 100gr it was the same beef/bone but I added a bit of egg shell (less than a teaspoon)

No vomitis , no diarrhea.. Not a very hard poo, but not liquid at all.

Today: (today):

He slept good till 8 am, no vomits, no diarrhea..
At 9 I tried to feed him with the same kind of meal, he refused
10 min ago (around 10 am)he vomited (white/light yellow water) and again diarrhea stool. (pieces of bones)

Maybe I can try mix raw/kibble... I know, I must wait 8 hours between raw and kibble.

I found this kibble... maybe is also a trash...

chicken meat flour - chicken meat - brown rice - chicken fat - bicálcico fosfato - beetroot pulp - canola oil - potassium chloride - sodium cloride - citric acid - chloride - rosemary essence, zinc protein - tocoferol - vitamida - sulphate/iron - vit b12 - vit retinol - niacina - vit b1 tiamina - acid pabtotênico - sulphate of manganese - vit b2 riboflamina - Iodate of potassium - vit b6 piridoxina, vit d3 colecalciofenol - selenite of sodium

hehe I translated it from babel fish. Here their website: http://www.guabi.com.br/pet/pop_produtos.asp?codigo=22

Any suggestion? Opinion...

Thanks !!

[tati]

Hi,
Day 15:
He got beef/bone (piece of beef/bone around it) 3 times, he liked it. 150 gr each meal, small. His last meal, #4, less amount than before, like 100gr it was the same beef/bone but I added a bit of egg shell (less than a teaspoon)

No vomitis , no diarrhea.. Not a very hard poo, but not liquid at all.

Today: (today):

He slept good till 8 am, no vomits, no diarrhea..
At 9 I tried to feed him with the same kind of meal, he refused
10 min ago (around 10 am)he vomited (white/light yellow water) and again diarrhea stool. (pieces of bones)

Maybe I can try mix raw/kibble... I know, I must wait 8 hours between raw and kibble.

I found this kibble... maybe is also a trash...

chicken meat flour - chicken meat - brown rice - chicken fat - bicálcico fosfato - beetroot pulp - canola oil - potassium chloride - sodium cloride - citric acid - chloride - rosemary essence, zinc protein - tocoferol - vitamida - sulphate/iron - vit b12 - vit retinol - niacina - vit b1 tiamina - acid pabtotênico - sulphate of manganese - vit b2 riboflamina - Iodate of potassium - vit b6 piridoxina, vit d3 colecalciofenol - selenite of sodium

hehe I translated it from babel fish. Here their website: http://www.guabi.com.br/pet/pop_produtos.asp?codigo=22

Any suggestion? Opinion...

Thanks !!

[gmacleod]

Mmmm. With him vomitting bile in the mornings, the most likely explanation there is that his stomach is empty and he isn't handling that well. It makes him feel nauseous, so he doesn't want to eat - and then he vomits up yellow bile. He's not alone in that - quite a lot of dogs do it (on all different sorts of diets).

Anyway, feeding a mix of kibble and raw might help. Kibble takes far longer to digest than raw food. And for that reason, I'd suggest that if you're going to feed some meals that are kibble, then the kibble meal should be his last meal of the day.

That's for two reasons - one is that kibble is digested far more slowly than raw food is, so he's far less likely to wake up nauseous because his stomach is empty if his last meal at night was kibble; and secondly because that would also give the longest time between kibble and raw meals.

As for the dry food: actually, it looks reasonably good. The first two ingredients are meat sources, and the grain used is a decent quality one (brown rice). The only ingredient that I'd complain about is the beet pulp (which is one of those controversial ingredients that some food manufacturers claim is a great source of fibre, and others claim is added to slow down the decomposition of fats and stresses the liver and kidneys in the process). But you're unlikely to find a food that has no undesirable ingredients in it. And unless your dog suffers from allergies, beet pulp is less undesirable than a great many things.

And besides, if you keep feeding some meals that are raw food, then the kibble isn't going to be his only source of nutrition.

Do let us know how that works for him :)

[tati]

hello gmacleod,

I decided to feed him a kibble that I showed you before...just for a while untill he gets stronger. He still did not eat much, but did not vomit anymore and his stool is looking a bit better. I want him stronger again to start to approach him to a raw diet again. My other 2 dogs are very healthy eating raw and loving it very much. I know raw is the best option, but I think my bullie has a particular problem and first I have to check what it is. Maybe a virus, parasite... Now we will see... For now,I dont know much ...

We visited the homeopathic VET, the one I told you before. He asked us to make many lab. tests as blood, parasitose, abdominal ultrasound, urine and stool. We already know from the abdominal ultrasound that he has perfect liver, kidness... well, everything he has into the abdomen is perfect and normal. :) I am waiting for the other tests.

I want to give him a time to recorver good and then I will come again here to you and if you can, we can start together to approach him to the raws again, in this time in aa better way... As you know, I did many errors before...

One more time, thanks a lot!!

Merry Christmas! Feliz Natal!

[gmacleod]

Well, it's good to hear your other dogs are doing well on it :) Do let us know how the kibble works out for your Frenchie pup though. And we'll be here when you're ready to start raw with him again. If I can help, I'm very happy to.

Good luck! (and Feliz Natal to you to :))

[tati]

gmacleod,

My pup is healthy, he has nothing serious...Thank God!! appicon

His digestive system got irritaded to the bones. When I started to feed raw I gave him too much bones. His digestive system is sensitive. Now he needs to fix his lipases enzymes (in pancreas) because it is a bit, just a little bit, under the level. I am giving him this enzyme to help his pancreas. It is not pancreatitis because his pancreas was not damaged but it was in the way ... :(

I thought that he was loosing weight ( I lost weight myself LOL), but he did not.. His weight is 21.6 pounds/9,6 kg, he will make 6 month old on 26 dec. Is it normal? The VET told me that is very good that I dont have to worry about.

The VET also said that I can try raw again when he will be with that enzyme fixed, no problem with raws but I need to start with the bones in a slow way.

He did not like much that kibble, but of course he eats it a little when he gets hungry. I think he wants raw again because he always wants to eat the other dogs food. But I should wait a bit, a week or two. ( I am the raw number 1 fan hehe)

My pup still does not has a godfather... Maybe you can be ... :cool:

Bye bye, gmacleod!

[franp]

I am , also glad that things are improving..

On another list I am on, we have several South American members..Sergio is an active breeder/show person, so I assume there are many Frenchies ,if they are showing..

And I bet ,if their English was better, we would have more members from that part of the world.

[tati]

Hello!

Could you please forgive me, gmacleod? I dont want you as a godfather..., Do you want to be my pup GODMOTHER? :) His name is Tuffy, he was born in Belgium and lives now in South Brazil.

Lylidog: You can see Tuffy's tag in that map...I added him :) Well, not many Frenchies and Brazil, breeders started from 10 years ago.( I am not a breeder, I am just someone that love dogs) Since a year I was reading about Frenchies and their lovely temperament. So, I contated a few brazilian breeders, but I wanted a bullie with a very white coat, and they didnt have the bullie I wanted. Then later I found in internet a breeder in Belgium and I got the Frenchie I dreamed with. And I did import him! :) He is super sweet!

franp: You can have a look in 2 breeders from the city I live:

http://www.bulldogfrances.com.br/

http://www.dubelmon.com/

Yes people, I am very happy too that my Tuffy is getting better! Thanks everybody!

Cheers!!

[gmacleod]

LOL - godmother it is then ;)

Glad to hear he's doing better now.