Scout's obedience class...an oxymoron?

[lcmwest]

Ok. So Scout gets alot of attention in our class. Maybe it is because she gets into her little stance and won't sit or go "down". Last week, I couldn't help laughing pretty hard during class while the trainer put her foot on the leash really close to the collar and she stood there about 5 full minutes with a rebellious look on her face until she relented and laid down. Well, I noticed the trainer thought I wasn't taking the class seriously enough.... shock oh noooooo
This week she is doing a little better, (or maybe I'm the one doing a little better).
Anyway, looking forward to the frenchie summit, so I can glean some pearls of wisdom from people who know frenchies. Meanwhile, anyone have some book recommendations on frenchie training/etc?

[lcmwest]

I hear you. She does not advocate any hands on stuff, nor does she advocate "talking like a drill sargeant". That's good. She did send me info on the breed, as she does for all prospective students, but your point is well taken. I hope to get some assistance from others who are really experienced with frenchies.

[lcmwest]

I do like to use treats. The trainer uses some treats, but not for everything. I have seen the method you mentioned before, I will try it. the trainer had us stoop down, take one of her front legs and lower her down gently while saying down. She probably will do better if I use more treats!

[phoebesmom]

I have been laughing so much picturing Scout in her 'obedience' class - :D . To be honest, one of the things I love about Frenchies is that little stubborn streak - I find it rather charming!

Phoebe also went to obedience class when she was young and everything went according to plan except for the 'down' command. I also used the treat method, i.e. putting the treat in front of her nose then lowering it to the floor, thereby putting her in the down position. As soon as she had gulped down her treat up she stood again, like a little jack-in-the-box. I have never really bothered about it and am happy that she at least knows to sit and stay (most of the time).

You are right - Frenchie + obedience class = oxymoron!

[RufusRules]

I too, agree about Frenchies and obedience class. Not a good mix. Rufus bit another dog during class (he is terribly dog aggressive), but he was still teacher's pet, because of that mug of his!

Just wanted to add that food is a great motivator. Never be afraid to give treats. You don't work for free, right? Why should your dog? I have also had some success with clicker training. He really likes the sound of the clicker, but he still gets a treat.

[lcmwest]

More treats it is!! I have to remember to keep a pocketful. To be honest, I don't really care so much about her being able to do stuff on command, either. I do want her to be able to sit/stay and come when called; you never know when that will be needed in a situation that would keep her safe. And I agree, the stubborn streak is endearing and funny.

[miserlou]

Hmmm.. I like to teach my dogs without any touching/pressing/forcing involved. This way they are forever happier and faster to do the thing I ask from them - they have figured it out by themselves, and like to do it because it's beneficial to them (= get a treat, or later on perhaps just praise is enough. Treat every now and then usually brings the best results. In the beginning I believe in giving treats for any little "success"!)

To teach the "down" command I hold a treat in a closed fist, palm up. I showed Elsi that I have a treat, but closed my hand when she was trying to take it. I placed my hand on the floor - and waited. She would try and get the treat in all possible ways, but nothing happened. The hand stayed closed. During tho whole thing I kept completely quiet. If she started losing interest, I opened the fist a bit to get her interest back on the treat. At some point, I think it took close to ten minutes for Elsi, she lied down in her frustration. That exact second I opened my fist, and she finally got the treat.

She was about three months old when I was teaching her this, and it took her a couple of days to finally remember how she gets the treat fastest - by lying down. :) When they understand the hand signal (and yes, dogs learn hand signals much easier than verbal commands) I add the verbal command. Later the verbal command is enough to get your stubborn, but greedy :p Frenchie to simply fall down in half a second. ;)

[franp]

Tricks were never my intention when going to obiedience..Manners were/are.Sit; stay;down and come are imperative.

Living in a high rise building and going in the elevator really brings this to the forefront. Dari MUST sit when others are in the elevator with us..That is one of the reasons people in my building like her..

But like the rest of you;I had one heck of a time getting her to listen. The down was the hardest to learn..Sorry to say that the trainor did put her foot on Dari's leash..but I did not know any better then..

Down is used only when she has done something that merits discipline..Like barking at the dog in the building that uses wheels because she is crippled..

Dari uses down herself to ingratiate herself if someone has cookies (or she THINKS they have cookies) and she desperately wants one...

As an aside; people (not us on the board) think that just because thier dogs are small , they do not have to train them...OOOH I hate that...

fran

[piper's~mom]

Piper is an official graduate of Puppy Kindergarten, we have a ribbon and pictures to prove it ;)

Although he did learn sit and down, we're struggling with come. He ignores come, and when I try and follow through by retreiving him it turns into a "chase me mommy" game.

"Come" is the command I am the most concerned about teaching and having him understand... but I've reached a stand still.

Any advice from you all who have successfully taught that command is VERY welcome!

[PiggyDog]

I too am having trouble teaching my 4 month old to come. She doesn't come at all when called and even runs away when you go get her because she doesn't want to come inside the house, she loves being outdoors. She has mastered sit, having trouble with down so I gave up. I would really like her to sit, stay and come... the rest of the commands are just for fun (for me anyway). Any help with the come (come here) command would be greatly appreciated :)

[phoebesmom]

When Phoebe went to puppygarten, from day 1 we started on the recall, which to my mind has been the most important lesson of all. It carried on through during her training and I still reinforce it even now. This is how we did it - the trainer held Phoebe by her collar, and I had a piece of sausage/cheese held in my hand, which I would wave in front of Phoebe's nose so she could get a whiff of it. I went a short distance away, and with the trainer still holding her I would use the command "here Pheobe" in a high pitched voice, then the trainer would let her go. We did this time and time again, and each time I would move further away from her, eventually hiding behind an obstacle a long way from her, so that she would follow my voice. When she got to me she would have to sit, then I would get hold of her collar and give her the treat. It has worked so well for us. I let Phoebe off her leash when she was just a baby, and to this day she always walks off leash - obviously in a traffic free area - and she has NEVER run off from me. I still do it today from time to time, but no more treats. If we are walking in the forest I hide behind a tree and call her name, and she comes running to find me.

I honestly believe that was such a valuable lesson, as even if Phoebe runs off a little way to chase a hedgehog or something like that, she always keeps me in her vision and comes running when I call "here Phoebe".

[miserlou]

OK, I'll give it a go. :)

My "golden do and don't"s of teaching "come" :D - definitely the most important command to teach, as well as "stay", and the most difficult one as well due to some very common mistakes, which are:

1. Calling, when the puppy is moving away from you or is in the middle of play or any other activity that is highly likely to be more interesting than coming to you is... Result: learns to associate "come" with a whole other activity than actually coming to you.

2. Overusing the command! "Come!" "Come!" "Come!" "Come!" - Result: means absolutely nothing to the puppy anymore. Has completely lost its meaning. You'll be forever ignored...

How I teach "come":

I start by associating my puppy coming to me with the command. E.g. I have a toy in my hand, which my puppy sees and starts running towards me - I say "Come!" Or we are outside and I start running away from my puppy (the best way to get your dog come to you - NEVER start chasing your dog, instead run AWAY from him) and he seeing this runs after me - again I say "Come"!

(This system you can use in all of the training, no matter what you want to teach. The idea of it is to give the natural actions of your dog a name. E.g. when your dog sits down on its own, say "Sit". They learn to associate the action with the command. (This way my dogs also pee on command... very useful when I'm in a hurry!))

Most importantly your dog coming to you (even if it happens five minutes after you called him...) has to be a positive thing to him - always. In the beginning carrying treats with you is a good idea, and you can reward your dog even when he comes to you on his own, without you calling him. (At least I believe in rewarding my dogs for taking contact to me without asking as well. A look into my eyes in the middle of a walk gets praise from me. I'm so happy to see how Elsi has learnt to follow me instead of Iida, as she did in the beginning. Now she stops to wait for me and looks up to me to show the direction we are taking next. She also listens when I tell her not to go to some dog. In short, she has learnt to see me as the one to follow and keep an eye on. I never wait around, and if she doesn't follow me but goes somewhere on her own, I hide from her... Didn't have to do that many times, now she doesn't let me out of her sight!)

IMO the most important thing to keep in mind when teaching "come" is not to let it fail. :p What I mean is that instead of doing many not that successful exercises with the dog, I rather do perhaps just one successful per day. And to make it successful is up to me. I have to be 100% sure he's going to come to me before I even tell him to. If I'm not 100% sure, and I need to get that puppy to come to me, I will go and get him instead. Every failed attempt means many more to come...

Well, there are some of my thoughts on this subject. :)

[Roland]

I taught my puppy to come, although she is not 100 percent reliable yet. Start out close, (show them the treat for the first couple times if necessary) say their name along with the command "come" (or other recall word) and then give them a reward for coming to you. Do this in many different environments, decreasing distance when you increase distractions in the environment. Always "throw a party" when they come to you: many treats and praises. Never call them and then do something they don't like (bathing or making them leave their fun place). Practice tons of repetitions in many different environments-but only when they are likely to come. My puppy actually came when I called her at the dog park with many distractions all around, but she was hungry, knew that "come" meant getting treats and had been playing for awhile already. Supposedly it will take months of doing this consistently to get a dog to reliably recall.

[roxyluv]

Roxy has two more classes puppy classes left before, and she has progressed very well. She's consistent with sit and will do down (as long as she's on the carpet -- the tile's too cold for her belly :D ) She been walking much better on the leash now and understands what "leave it" means too. She comes when called, but we are still having a lot of trouble when there are other distractions around. I'm definitely going to use all of your suggestions and see if that helps too.

Roxy has become quite a barker and we are trying to work on that. She's not barking as much at people we pass on the street, but forget about when another dogs come walking up. She barks like a maniac until she is allowed to meet them. It's hard for the trainer to see the behavior because now that she knows all the pups in puppy class, she no longer barks at them. So we're still working on that. Hopefully as she gets older and grows more confident, she won't feel the need to bark as much.

The only thing I wish obedience class had done more of is let the pups socialize more. I just feel like the trainer didn't give us enough time each week to do that, and that should be what puppy class is all about. Otherwise it's been a great experience.

[Chris&Eti]

gmacleod had some great advice on practising recall in this thread< http://www.bulldogworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1223&highlight=leash > which I followed to great success. When we are at the dog run now I periodically call Eti and reward him with a treat and some affection when he comes -and its pretty much 99% these days.