Hill's Prescriprion diet H/D

[moniquedk]

Levi is on Hill's Prescribed Diet H/D for a heart condition. I've read through most of the threads and it seems that Hill's is not a popular food. We don't get that many brands of food here, none of the good ones you mention can be found here.
People have advised us against Royal Canin (also manufactured here), I've heard a lot of stories about the manufacturing process, etc. Hill's is the most expensive food on the market. I've talked to Nutritionists at The Faculty for Veterinary Science Onderstepoort. (A well-known institution world-wide, they also have many foreign students from all over the world) They assure me that Hill's is one of the best foods on the market. The only other "good brands" we have are Pro Plan and Pro Pac. I personally also don't like Eukanuba. My dogs are my children. Money, effort and time is of no concern. I just want the best for them, but there are so many different opinions, that it is hard to make up your mind on which food is the best. I've considered feeding raw, but have been advised to stick to the prescribtion diet. HELP???????

[gmacleod]

Well, you're right that Hill's isn't a popular or well-thought-of food. And if you were to do an internet search, I think you'd probably find that we're pretty kind to it here ;) Many others are not so nice about that company and it's products.

As for choosing an alternative though, it really depends on exactly why your dog is on that diet (ie. what's the heart condition), and what precisely it is that your vet expects the food to achieve.

The fact of veterinary medicine is that the medical training does not usually include nutrition. That's not really a criticism of vets - they're doctors, not nutritionists. Human doctors (GPs) aren't nutrition experts either - they get their nutritional information from nutritionists. Unfortunately, in the veterinary world, most vets get their nutritional knowledge from pet food companies (and some of the courses run in vet schools are no more extensive than the rep from a pet food company showing up to tell how great their foods are).

That doesn't mean that no vets are nutrition experts. Heck, the main proponents and developers of things like BARF were vets. But it usually means that *if* a vet has extensive nutritional knowledge, then that is something that was gained outside of vet school. In many cases, veterinarians are prescribing products such as Hill's without any particular knowledge of what's in them or what they might achieve, beyond the fact that the label says it's for a particular condition. And when you mention things like the harm done by chemical preservatives that have been banned from the human food chain because they're thought to be carcinogenic - they just look at you blankly.

I’d also note that many veterinary cardiologists recommend raw diets for dogs with heart conditions as well. Precisely because they contain no sodium, no grains and because they contain no preservatives. Hill’s may have taken the sodium out of their food, but they certainly haven’t taken any preservatives out (or grains, for that matter).

Sooo - the point of that long diatribe was really just to point out that it's important to know why your vet has prescribed the Hill's H/D, and exactly what he's trying to achieve with it. For people, heart diets may need to be things that are low in cholesterol and saturated fats, for example. Well, if that's what your vet wants for your dog, then that's easy to achieve with a raw diet (without the carcinogenic preservatives, and without the nasty by-products either). But if he's prescribed it just because the label says it's for hearts - then it's probably worth consulting someone with a better knowledge of nutrition ;)

Hill's H/D, incidentally, is marketed as being formulated for Heart failure, Hepatic and Kidney Diseases with Hypertension, and Heartworms. According to Hill's it does so through being low in sodium (salt). Hard to believe that's all - but looking at the ingredient list, it is very similar to many of the other prescription foods, so it's likely that that *is* the only differential. I don't think I need to say that it's easy to avoid salt altogether - either via a natural diet, or purchasing a better quality food that doesn't contain salt... Most holistic practitioners also advocate raw diets (with a high content of heart/offal) for heart conditions.

Anyway - here's the ingredient list for this food:
Corn meal, rice protein concentrate, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), chicken by-product meal, chicken liver flavor, casein, dried egg product, vegetable oil, powdered cellulose, natural flavor, L-lysine, taurine, L-carnitine, L-tryptophan, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, potassium chloride, magnesium oxide, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).

Weeell. It's not too pretty really. The primary ingredient is corn - which well known to be a nasty grain to feed to dogs. A very common allergen and difficult to digest ( a fact accepted by most food manufacturers, with the exception of Hill's who continue to insist that it's good for canines. The only other manufacturers that continue to use this grain are the supermarket brands, never premium foods). The next most prolific ingredient is rice protein. That's followed by fat. Then by by-products (the AAFCO definition of chicken by-product meal is "a meal made from the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice." This is not good nutrition for a dog, or any other animal. Those are waste products.

The biggest problem I have with Hill's prescription products though, is the carcinogenic chemical preservatives. Hill's has finally removed those from it's regular product line, but they're still present in all the prescription foods. I'm uncharitable enough to think it is because if your dog has a medical condition requiring a specific diet, you don't have the same choices about alternative foods. So they can still get away with it. In the case of H/D, the offending chemicals are BHA and BHT. More about those here: http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm
http://www.groomers.com/tidbits/food.html
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/jesse.htm

In the final event though, I think you need to find out specifically what it is in this food that your vet thinks is going to help your dog. If he has some good sound medical reasons as to why it's a better option than other alternatives - then you should listen to that advice - or ask him for suitable alternatives that don't contain the carcinogens. He's the one with the medical training. But if there are no specific reasons for this food, then I think you could do a lot better for your dog. There are some very nasty ingredients in that food that you'd never give him if you saw them in their raw state. For the sake of just low salt, there are better ways of doing it - ways that don't include feeding chicken beaks and feet and chemicals believed to cause cancer.

[Mokeymunster]

For the sake of just low salt, there are better ways of doing it - ways that don't include feeding chicken beaks and feet and chemicals believed to cause cancer.

I've been told by a veterinary nutritionist that it is illegal to put beaks, hoofs, feet, and hair in dog food, so how is it that hills supposedly puts this in their food. ??

I think that if your vet has put your pet on h/d it is for a very specific reason, if you are uncomfortable with the food ask the if there is any other options they can recomend for a dog with this specific heart issue. Chances are their are other options, but you probably will still have to get it from the vet as foods that are formulated for heart disease may be harmful to healthy animals and therefore could not be sold outside of the clinic setting.

[gmacleod]

I've been told by a veterinary nutritionist that it is illegal to put beaks, hoofs, feet, and hair in dog food, so how is it that hills supposedly puts this in their food. ??

Nope, sorry. Read the AAFCO definition of chicken by-products as above ;) Heads, beaks and feet are perfectly allowable. Feathers are not - except "in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice." It's not just Hill's either - it's any producer of low quality food that uses by-products as an ingredient (so include manufacturers like Bil Jac and Iams in there ;)).

AAFCO is the body for the regulation of North American feed standards. Here's a link to their site: http://www.aafco.org/


Sounds like you're confusing that with the definition of meat by-products - which excludes horns, hooves, hair and teeth. That, however, is an entirely different ingredient that isn't actually present in this food.

[moniquedk]

Levi has Pulmonic Stenosis. The reason for the vet prescribing the diet is because of the restricted salt content. I honestly don't think, they care too much. Could you advise where I will be able to get a suitable diet for Levi. I will have to make it myself, as the RAW you all have been talking about, doesn't exist here.

[miserlou]

Our raw comes from a butchery and supermarkets. :) Chicken wings being the main thing my dogs get. They digest them easily and to my understanding the bone/meat ratio is good in wings.

[franp]

Levi has Pulmonic Stenosis. The reason for the vet prescribing the diet is because of the restricted salt content. I honestly don't think, they care too much. Could you advise where I will be able to get a suitable diet for Levi. I will have to make it myself, as the RAW you all have been talking about, doesn't exist here.


There are a number of raw feeding lists that you can subscribe to.And any one of them will be able to tell you how to feed your dog; making it yourself.

Most of the people I know with more than one dog ,make thier own. I am just too lazy to do it myself.. and there is just not enough time in the day.

fran

[ev960d]

Hi Moniquedk,

hmm...perhaps u can consider ordering via internet for the kibbles u want? sounds like a business idea if you can bring in some premium kibbles at your end? sorry to side track abit :p

[moniquedk]

I finally found someone who will be able to help me with the raw diet issue. A veterinarian & Homeopath. After extensive research, I couldn't find anyone who agreed with me on the RAW diet. Luckily I found this person. He doesn't even sell Commercial pet food at his practice (Good sign, that he isn't in it for the money.)

[gmacleod]

Sounds excellent! I know that's something a lot of veterinary cardiologists recommend (raw diets), so it's not just the ideas of raw feeders ;)

Anyway - great to hear you've found a vet who'll help out on this.

[moniquedk]

Hi

I'm posting the diet the vet suggested: Is it any good?

Feeding is based on the four basic groups of ingredients:

1. Meat: Where possible this is a mixture of fish, lamb, and poultry with beef offal. Do try to ring the changes as this helps with a number of allergies including the skin diseases. It can contain the minimum of, or none of any meats that your animal may appear to be sensitive to. These sensitivities often do fall away when the meat is raw. We are looking at the inexpensive cuts. Your best plan is to chat to a butcher; explain what you're looking for, and ask him to make it up for you. This RAW meat can be chopped finely for the small individuals, or cubed and can contain a few bits and pieces of fat, gristle etc. This may also be the leftovers from the kitchen particularly if the food is raw. These animals are designed to eat raw food.

2. Grains: This may include barley, beans, whole corn, brown rice, oats etc. which must be gently COOKED until they are just softening. The entire range of soup products may be incorporated here.

3. Greens: Here we're looking at everything we eat ourselves, including all salads. These should be shredded or chopped finely. I am happy to use these raw, but for palatability and digestibility they may suit some small dogs better if they are GENTLY AND LIGHTLY STEAMED. Do however try to persist with them being raw initially. Do avoid avocados and raw potatoes.

Recipe:
Raw meat Cooked grains Raw greens
Dogs: Take by volume: 1/3 1/3 1/3
Puppies and Cats: 2/3 1/6 1/6

Pregnant Bitch: gradually increase from dog mix to cat mix by the sixth week of pregnancy. Continue on the higher protein base until the puppies are four weeks of age when the diet may revert to normal over the next few weeks. Puppies of four weeks will already be wolfing down the same diet as mum. With the larger breeds including those such as the Wolfhound and Great Dane the bitch should be hand fed during the first week to encourage her to eat the huge amount of food she requires to produce the vast amounts of milk required for a large litter. She should be fed at 2.00am and at 6.00am and every four hours during the day.

Additives: As this diet is only a practical approximation of a natural diet we have to reinforce it with additives:

Anti-oxidants:
• Pycnogenol
or
• Barley green with Kelp

Oils:
1. Omega oils No; 3
• Flax Seed/Linseed Oil (cold-pressed)
• Soya Oil (cold-pressed)
• Olive Oil (cold-pressed)

2. Omega oils No; 6
• Salmon oil etc
A balance of oils 3 and 6 in proportions of 5:1 should be aimed at.

Vitamins
ECO-VET’S COLOSTRUM A commercially available supplement containing
colostrum is now a well established factor in the fight against nutritional
imbalances and forms an important aspect of my treatment where immune
system compromise leads to tumour and chronic viral infections. The
powder (cats) or the tablets are given twice daily
• It does contain a mixture of vitamins

Vit C; High doses to bowel tolerance twice daily for ten days as pulse
therapy may be of value during many illnesses with Labradors having 4gms
daily and Jack Russell’s 500gms daily. Yes! These are big doses but
effective.

Preparation: Allow time to prepare the mixture.
Add all of the above three ingredients plus the oils in the correct proportions.
Divide into individual meals, bag and freeze.
Thaw the lump of frozen pre-prepared food; it may be served cold or gently warmed.

Bones: I do understand the arguments here but am still convinced that dogs should have constant access to large RAW bones. There may be a short adjustment period where loose stools may be observed but this usually sorts itself out quickly.

Points to Remember:
• Most animals are over-fed; if they do not like this diet they are not hungry.
• The majority of small dogs actually require such a tiny amount of food that their mothers are always convinced that they are starving. They come rolling into the clinic with a worried mum claiming that they never eat!
• Feed equal quantities night and morning.
• Extras; very rarely and never chocolate.

Disclaimer: Raw meat is associated with a slightly increased risk of parasitic disease and any animals following this plan should be routinely dewormed with standard veterinary dewormers at three monthly intervals. Yes! I agree that deworming is unnatural and toxic – but it has to be done. Natural deworming is as yet not good enough.

[franp]

I can not attest to the ingredients; but only to two statements that caugt my eye..

If the dog does not like the diet it is not hungry... Sorry , that is an assinine statement...
My dog did not eat for 4 years with out being forced and I used some of the best dog foods around.. she was VERY hungry...

Second.. I feed raw and do NOT worm my dog... She has fecals done at the vet.. NEGATIVE....I would NOT worm my dog on a regular basis..

[gmacleod]

I'm pretty impressed. What you've got there, incidentally, is a standard BARF diet with the addition of some cooked grains :) I don't personally believe that grains are necessary, nor useful - but high quality grains like barley and oats shouldn't do harm either. And I'm not a homeopath - so don't know if there's a specific reason for their inclusion.

In selecting meat parts for the diet - good things are parts like chicken necks, wings, thighs, lamb ribs, necks, and whole fresh or canned oily fish (like mackeral). Offal is any internal organ - heart is especially good, but also liver, lungs, kidney and tripe (green, not bleached white).

The only cautions I would make are on the inclusion of corn as a cooked grain/vegetable - it's a common allergen. And also the use of soya oil - also a common allergen, but thought also to have other nasty effects. I'd just stick with the recommended flaxseed or olive oil instead.

On the deworming thing - that should not be necessary, though I do understand the need for a medical practitioner to make that disclaimer. Meat that is sourced from the human food chain is well screened for parasites, and in any case they and their larvae can be killed by the simple precaution of freezing the meat for several days prior to feeding it ;) If you were getting your meat from a wild source (ie. something you went out and hunted on the weekend LOL) then you might need to be more cautious. But if it's meat sourced from that raised for the human food chain, then the risk is miniscule. Having periodic fecal tests done by your vet, and treating only if there's a problem is a far better way to go.

Overall though - I think this looks very good. It's waaayy better than the nasty things contained in Hills H/D - and no carcinogenic preservatives at all. I think your dog will love you for it :)

[moniquedk]

You guys are going to think I'm neurotic. Any comments on the following document?

FOR MOST DOMESTICATED DOGS
A RAW FOOD DIET IS NOT THE ANSWER




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Yet because of the problems associated with processed commercial kibbled food, many dog owners are now feeding a raw food diet to their companion pets.
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The present trend to feed dogs a raw food diet was kicked off by Dr. Ian Billinghurst when he wrote a book in 1993 promoting a "Bones and Raw Food (BARF) diet." Now there are many different pet food companies which promote a line of raw meat pet foods or the use of raw meats supplemented with the line of dietary products they produce. Raw food diets have been around long enough that we have been able to see the harm they are doing to many domesticated dogs. This has been well documented. Ann Martin, who wrote the book FOOD PETS DIE FOR has a new book out titled PROTECT YOUR PET: MORE SHOCKING FACTS. It has chapters on the "Dangers of Commercial Pet Foods", "Raw Meat Diet Controversy", "Increased Cancer in Pets" - and more. I urge all pet owners who are thinking of feeding their companion pets with a raw food diet to read the chapter "Raw Meat Diet Controversy" in Ann Martin's new book.


Ann is joined by many canine nutritionists and Veterinarians who now urge dog owners to be VERY CAREFUL about feeding raw meat to their dogs. Unfortunately most of the published information about the dangers of a raw food diet are published in scientific journals that the average dog owner never hears about i.e. the article Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs written by Jeffrey T. LeJeune, DMD, PhD, and Dale D. Hancock, DMD, PhD. The article appeared in the November 1, 2001 issue of JAVMA (a small publication sent to Veterinarians). For a copy you can contact Dr. LeJeune. His present address is: Dr. LeJeune, c/o Food Animal Health Research Program, Ohio Agriculture Research and Development Center, The Ohio State University, Wooster, OH 44691-4096.


At his Internet web site Dr. Belfield states:
"As a veterinary practitioner for thirty-seven years and a veterinary meat inspector for seven years, I, in good conscience, cannot recommend raw meat diets to my clients. My advice to my clients is "cook the meat until the redness is gone". When this is done, there is no vomiting, the cholesterol level is normal, the risk of infection by microorganisms and parasites diminishes." (a direct quote from his 1999 on-line article Raw Meat Diets for Companion Animals?)


Any diet that gets a dog eating foods that are not filled with preservatives and other chemicals found in most commercial dog food is considered by most canine nutritionists as a step in the right direction. But the raw meat diets which are on the market today fall into the same trap as the all-breed/any-breed kibble and are being sold as "one diet GOOD for all dogs." Even though, in the National Research Council's book, Nutrient Requirements of Dogs,they show how one breed can have a different reaction to a single food source than another breed. There are breeds that have genetic predisposed allergies to beef. Some dog breeds have inherent allergies to fish or chicken. We know that the amino acid content of various meat sources are different and must be in the correct balance for the animal being fed so that the protein is bio-nutritive for that animal and not cause an allergenic reaction. Raw or cooked, you should not use a meat source that will cause the breed of dog you are feeding nutritional distress. It has been PROVEN that the differences in per kilogram nutritional requirements of the different breeds makes it impossible for any one diet, including a raw meat diet, to be nutritionally correct for all dogs.


The meat that we can buy at the store (the same meat you and I buy and cook before eating) is NOT the same as the meat that a wild animal eats from a natural kill. Commercial meat has been processed and exposed to many factors that make feeding it to our companion pets potentially harmful. If we could provide the same fresh raw meat that the ancestors of today's dog had access to 600,000 years ago, including the hot fresh guts - what wild animals still go for first in a kill - then it might be OK to feed them with that food source. Unfortunately, today's pet owners can't. Meat that is processed and sold through retailers has been exposed to a number of chemical agents. There are 72,00 chemicals now in use in the USA. Commercial meat, even "Organic meat", can be (and most likely is) exposed to most of these 72,00 chemicals. These MUST be destroyed by using heat to generate temperatures that will break them down.


Most companies selling their raw meat diets are promoting this type of diet with the claim that all domesticated dogs descended from the wolf. For years, scholars have debated the origins of today's domesticated dog. In 1787 John Hunter proposed: that since the dog produces fertile hybrids with both the wolf and the jackal, these three canids should be considered a single species. A different view on this was written about by Linnaeus in 1758. He concluded the dog to be a separate species based on the fact that it had physical characteristics unique to the Canis familiaris (domesticated dog).


In 1868 Darwin wrote:
"The chief point of interest is whether the numerous domesticated varieties of the dog have descended from a single wild species or from several. Some authors believe that all have descended from the wolf, or from the jackal, or from an unknown and extinct species. Others again believe, and this of late has been the favorite tenet, that they have descended from several species, extinct and recent, more or less commingled together. We shall probably never be able to ascertain their origin with certainty."


In the early 1950's Konrad Lorenz again popularized the idea that some breeds of dog descended from the wolf and other breeds descended from the Jackal. In the 1980's and 1990's those selling raw meat diets took this a step further and promoted a single raw meat diet for all dogs based on the claim that all domesticated dogs are direct descendants of the wolf and thus would need the same diet as a wild wolf. A direct link showing the wolf to be the sole forefather of today's domesticated dog has never been proven. The FACT is that scientific examination of the DNA sequences of the Wolf and domesticated dog show that there are 26 different DNA sequences which PROVES that the domesticated dog CAN NOT be a direct descendant of the Wolf. It may be a nice warm thought for a dog owner to look at their companion pet and think of its ancestors as free spirited, good looking animals standing on a cliff with a full moon behind them. But the wolf may only be a distant cousin and no more related to our modern companion pet than a jackal, a fox, a dingo, or a coyote. Most dog owners might be less willing to feed their companion pet a food product that was being sold based on a theory of an ancestor that was a hen-house raiding fox or a mangy coyote. If a commercial food company promoted their product using the claim that "Fluffy" needed the same diet as a jackal it would never succeed. Yet according to undisputed experts on genealogy i.e. Hunter, Linnaeus, Darwin, and Lorenz your companion pet could be as closely related to the coyote or jackal as it is to the wolf.


It is not just the raw meat that can cause today's domesticated dog harm. Raw vegetables can also do damage. The Glycemic Index of Foods (Internet web site at www.glycemic.com) shows that raw carrot can cause the pancreas to produce much more insulin than the same amount of cooked carrot. The overload of insulin will then cause the dogs liver to have problems the same as a diabetic human would experience. The Glycemic Index of Foods list over 1,000 raw and cooked meats and vegetable food sources and shows us that we MUST choose what we put into an animals diet with care. We are seeing an increase in the number of diabetic dogs and the correlation between the growing popularity of feeding dogs a raw food diet and this disease can not be ignored.


Another argument for not feeding today's domesticated dog a raw food diet is that we know domesticated dogs have been eating cooked food for over 300,000 years. In the Middle Pleistocene period companion pets (dogs included) were buried along side their masters. Grave sites have been uncovered by archaeologists which have revealed much about the companion pets as well as the early humanoids who were roaming this earth at that time. i.e. the site of Zhoukoudian in North China. Our present day domesticated dogs have been eating cooked foods long enough to cause a change in their digestive and glandular systems and the way that they will react to raw foods.


A final point I will leave with you is: NO human nutritionist is recommending that all humans should eat a diet that only consists of bananas and leaves based on the theory that humans descended from the Chimpanzee even though the DNA profiles of the Chimpanzee/human is a closer match than the DNA profiles of the wolf/dog. And . . . there is not a single dog owner feeding their dogs a diet based on the wolf/dog theory who is also feeding themselves a diet based on the nutrients a wild Chimpanzee eats.


It is my hope that the dog owners of today will look at the animal they are feeding and feed it according to its nutritional needs. This would exclude feeding it a food based on marketability (a single any-breed/all-breed dry kibble) or on a romantic theory (an any-breed/all-breed raw meat diet). We know that the different breeds have different per/kG nutritional requirements. We also know that different members of a breed can have unique requirements based on where they live, their activity level, medical history, etc. There is no single diet that can be nutritionally correct for all Canis familiaris (domesticated dog). We should choose a meat source that the breed we are feeding can assimilate - and then blend that meat with the correct source of carbohydrates and other nutrients which have been proven to be best for the specific dog being fed - adjust the protein/carbohydrate/fat ratio/etc. to the requirements of that animal - and then handle the food (this includes cooking it) in such a manner to provide the safest and best bio-nutritive value for the companion pet we love.

[gmacleod]

Basically I think that's a load of rubbish :) The article is so long that I won't bother responding to the individual points raised (unless there are specific ones you want to ask about). There are a multitude of sites that already do that.

But the one I just can't resist is the claim about all the potentially harmful effects of the food we buy at the store, that's been exposed to zillions of chemicals. That's exactly the same food (albeit in waste and by-product form) that goes into high quality commercial dog foods... The low quality ones get the meats that are too low quality (although raised the same way) and dead, dying, disabled and diseased animals (do an internet search on 4-d animals ;)) to be used in the human food chain in any form. So if it's going to kill your pet when it's fresh, I fail to see how it's miraculously good for them once it's been processed and even more chemicals have been added LOL

I would also note that the author of that "article" - according to his own website - "earned a living in the food & pharmaceutical fields since the late 1950's". Ummm. The human food and pharmaceutical fields are the owners of the commercial pet food manufacturers (which is precisely the area he worked in) This is a commercial opinion ;) And surprisingly (not) the guy is promoting his own alternatives on that same site (which actually recommends against feeding most of the things commonly found in commercial dog food - and insists that canine nutrition is a highly breed specific thing).

I'd go with the diet your holistic vet recommended. She has better training and medical knowledge.