yet another post about raw; fasting

[jonathan]

Realize there have been a lot of posts about this lately, but wanted to throw this out there anyway. We are transitioning Petula to raw. Currently she eats Wellness 1/3 wet and 2/3 kibble. She has always loved her food and gobbles it down in about a minute flat and then licks the bowl spotless - after reading a lot on this board and other places we are making the switch only because we think it is the healthiest way to feed and not to remedy any allergy or illness (Petula is perfectly healthy and doing fantastic.)

When the transition is finished she will eat 3/4 Nature's Variety Lamb raw and 1/4 Innova EVO (a kibble) with a supplement of Rainbow brand dog oil. EVO is specially formulated to mix with raw. The benefit is that when we travel, the evo can be substituted for the raw. We were pointed in this direction by Whisker's Holistic on E. 9th -- which is a highly respected store that carries a lot of brands of raw -- they definitely know their stuff. We were advised not to worry about mixing raw with kibble during the transition, b/c it is only temporary. I realize this conflicts with the advice given on this board (which I highly value) -- so it gave me pause. So far Petula is fine though.

Also, we were advised to eventually fast Petula for one day each week (only water with chicken or beef broth), rotating days, because in the wild dogs must hunt for food and regularly go 24 hours or longer without it. This makes sense to me, but seems a little hardcore -- (after all, Petula is not a wild dog, she's a pampered baby in Soho! :lol:) I was wondering if anyone does this and if they notice any benefit, or would advise against it. Thanks!

[Borgan]

I see no need to fast your dog. If food is available, feed it! The canine metabolism is not all that different from that of a human... the more freqent the meal, the more stable the blood sugar. People used to feed their dogs once a day, and now the trend is 2 meals for that exact reason. The only reason to feed broth is if your dog is vomiting or has diareah and you need to keep them hydrated without upsetting their stomach. Whoever gave you that information needs to stay off the crack pipe.

Also, freeze dried, as opposed to dry is a good alternative to dry for feeding while traveling. Or bring a cooler for shorter trips!

- Brooke.

[gmacleod]

Mmm. That's true. But there's a huge difference between domesticated and kept as pets ;) Until pretty recently, the vast majority of dogs were working dogs (of some form or another) and fed accordingly - on raw scraps (possibly some cooked ones too). Commercial diets were only invented a bit over 100 years ago - as a means of using up waste grains LOL.

That's not to say that I think fasting is a great idea, and I don't deliberately fast my dog either. If, however, there is a day or two on occassion that he doesn't appear to wish to eat (happens occassionally) then I don't try to tempt him either. I don't believe that a day here and there without eating will do him any harm at all.

Incidentally, you know fasting one day a week is an idea that's periodically recommended for people too? To give the internal organs a break and allow for detoxification. For obvious reasons (it is unpleasant and we get hungry) it's never really taken off ;)

[Chris&Eti]

I thought that feeding twice a day and no fasting was the way to go until I recently read this article:
< http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/dogfood01stomach.pdf >
which explains that a dogs stomach is more efficient on a large meal because of the way it is constructed. It then explains the need for fasting as a corollary of this -less meals a week but larger quantity per meal
I need to read the book by the writer of the article before I'm entirely convinced but its certainly food for thought.

[Frankie's mom]

in regards to the EVO by innova, when i tried it with frankie, he had horrible diarrhea and i was told by someone to take him off of that immediately because the protein was too high. i mentioned that the raw is high protein as well, but apparently the raw is processed differently and even on the packages it notes that it is 20% crude protein, mcuh less than the EVO 40%. frankie has done phenomenally better since i put him completely on raw and use the freeze dried for travel. (and it's just as convenient as kibble!)

[gmacleod]

Mmmm. You can't actually make a direct comparison between the protein level of a dry food and that of raw. The raw food contains water... once that is removed from the equation, you will find that the protein content is quite a lot higher.

I have to say that 20% protein is quite high for a raw diet (talking on an as-fed basis). Even the "prey model" diets containing little to no vegetables, it's more like 15-18%. That ends up about 40-50% protein on a dry matter basis. However, protein in whole raw foods is different from protein in processed cooked foods, so you really can't compare the two - they have different nutrient availability (destroyed in the cooking process), absorption rates, etc.


Chris&Eti: I'm not convinced by that article. 2 major issues: first, feeding large meals (eg. the entire day's ration of food in a single meal) has been identified as a factor that causes an increased risk of bloat in large and deep chested breeds (which were the only ones studied, so the effect can't be ruled out for smaller breeds) in several large veterinary studies. It's hard to imagine that a practice that increases the risk of death (which is the inevitable conclusion of bloat without urgent veterinary intervention) is either natural or a good way to feed.
Second, so many dogs end up nauseous and throwing up bile if their stomachs are empty for too long. Again, it's hard to imagine that keeping a dog in that state is the best way to feed it.

I can certainly imagine that dogs have evolved a stomach capable of holding a very large quantity of food. What better way to protect food from others (and other predators) than by hiding it in your stomach? But I would find it hard to believe that dogs eat that way on a regular basis. Wild dogs are pack animals, but even so, it wouldn't be a common occurance to bring down a prey animal large enough for the entire pack to gorge themselves stupid on ;) No, I think more commonly they feed on small prey animals that give each member a small meal only...

[franp]

One of the things about Raw that I like is the flexibility..Prey model vs non prey model; ground bone vs whole etc.

Fasting is one of those things.

Personally, I don't fast Dari. I just don't see the need. She gets feed three small meals a day ; that seems to keep her very happy. Not to say she would not eat herself sick if I let her..

The guy at Whiskers is very knowledgeable. I know him well, as I have purchased Dari's food there and spent much time talking to Phil.He does know what he is doing.Many people I know do fast with broth.. But , it is all IMO what we are comfortable with.Just like some people are not even comfortable with raw..

Just yesterday, someone told me that Dari was going to be "some kind of blood thirsty pit bull " cause I feed raw... Yes we have been down that road and know what bullsh*t that is. Thank you very much...

[jonathan]

Thanks for your input everyone! No fasting for Petula!