How Much Crate Time?

[FrankEinstein]

Hi, I'm new to the board but have been reading for a while. My wife and I just got our puppy Sugar at 12 weeks old and have had her for a week. She's very stubborn about going when she wants to go. And we're trying to get her on a schedule. Our problem, though, is that we read so many different things about crate training. I just don't understand how much of the day she's supposed to remain in the crate. We can feed her and take her out at regular intervals, but what should she be doing in between those times?

Here's some info if this helps: We have a comfortable crate for Sugar with space limited to her so that she can lay down and turn around. The crate is in a tiled mudroom in the back of the kitchen, which is gated off, maybe about 4x5 feet. When we play with her, it is in this space and out in the yard. Otherwise, I keep the door of her create shut. At night, I have been waking up every two hours to walk her because she usually cries by then. The last two nights I tried to leave a pee pad in the mudroom and keep her door unzipped. I'm worried that I'll ruin her training by encouraging her to go inside, though. But she hasn't yet come close to holding it for even half the night.

So I guess that I have two questions: how much time between walks and feeding should be alone in crate time and how much should be play time, and what do I do about her at night? Thanks for any help you can give.

Frank

[franp]

Welcome.

There is a book that I found to be of great help " Seven days to housebreaking your dog".Read it, it will help.

Now,this is what I learned and did with Dari.
The first thing I learned was that your dog can "hold it" one hour longer than it is old So Sugar is 3 months, she can hold it 4 hours.

Dari would come out of her crate and do her business; we would play for about an hour or so and back into the crate. Dogs at this age need to nap; they are infants.

So, into the crate for 3-4 hours.Remember the formula. And this is teaching them muscle control.Then take your pup out; walk PRAISE, feed play, walk PRAISE stay out for about an hour after peeing and pooping..Back in the crate.Naptime again..

Keep this schedule.STRICTLY.. What I did was feed the last meal at about 5; water was picked up at 6; last walk was at 9;30.Dari slept till about 5. If the crate is not in the bedroom, you can not hear the dog.I personally prefer the crate in the bedroom.
Two hours is much too often..again my opinion.

Everytime Sugar does the right thing PRAISE!!! You should have seen me do the "poop dance" on the streets of NYC..

And as Sugar goes longer without accidents let her stay out a little longer.

This is how I did it.

fran

[FrankEinstein]

Thanks, Fran. I have ordered that book and will read it as soon as I can. What would you suggest, though, when Sugar starts howling in two hours or so, expecting to go out in the middle of the night? She hasn't been able to hold it for that long yet, and she has already pooped in her crate once before(which caused her to howl even more). She also starts scratching madly at the crate. I know that if I take her out, she will go, but how do I help her learn to hold it?

By the way, we have this same problem during the day. My wife works at home but is on a deadline until early afternoon. She ends up taking Sugar out just to keep her from howling. Thanks again for your advice. We'll try to get our schedule down as quickly as possible.

Frank

[ginaldo]

HI Frank,
Congrats on your frenchie. :) My Aldo is almost 11 weeks old so we are almost going through the same thing. Our doggie cried like crazy his first night in the crate, but now loves it. If I go upstairs for just a minute, he goes in his crate. I know that I read no matter how much they cry in the beginning, if you let them out of the crate, they win. Its hard to hear them crying and crying, but you have to let her stay in her crate. Yesterday Aldo was in his crate from about 1:30-7, and didnt have an accident (usually he is in his crate like 2-3 hours at a time this was a long time and is not normal for him). I was sure he wouldnt be able to hold it, but he did!!!! We actually leave him a little area to play, and he doesnt do anything in his area. The book that was recommended is very good, it does say that puppies really dont learn to control themselves until about 16 weeks and that before then it may be best to give them a little area in case they can't hold it...personally I think Aldo kinda knows what he is doing and hasn't had an accident in a week. What I learned in my entire week of being a parent is that every dog is different, and there is alot of advice out there, and you have to see what works best for your dog. There are alot of threads on this site that offer great advice on crate training....good luck!!!!!

[gmacleod]

If your pup needs to go out to potty during the night, then take him out. The alternative is a wet/poopy crate, and the last thing you need is to teach your dog to pee in his crate (which is what you'd effectively be doing if you don't take him out when he needs it). If you don't want to be responding to his cries though, then instead of waiting for him to ask to go out, set yourself an alarm and wake him up to go. You can then gradually start to push back the time of your alarm as he and his bladder grow, until the potty stop is no longer required.

[FrankEinstein]

Thanks for the advice! I've been trying to get up and anticipate the puppy, and have done it once with success, but then I'm waking up every two hours. Last night I tried to wait just a bit longer. Sugar's last trip outside was at 11 pm, and she did poop. I put her in her crate and set my alarm for 2:30 am. By 1:50 am, though, she was howling. I discovered that she had pooped in part of her crate and was squeezed into the other side. (Her crate, by the way, is already partitioned off to allow her only enough room to lie down and turn around.) I took her out, and she pooped again, probably finishing what she started in the crate. After I changed her blanket and put her back into her crate, Sugar slept from 2 am until I woke her up at 6 am. But of course now she has nothing left to hold. I'm not sure what to do now.

[gmacleod]

Set your alarm for a bit earlier would be my suggestion, since that's when she seems to need to go. If you get her out around 1.30 instead of 2.30, you'll probably get to sleep the rest of the way through until 6am or so.

Another thing you might try is to get her to poop more during her 11pm outing. It's possible that she's not emptying completely at that time, and that could be why she needs to go again so quickly (not necessarily the case, but it's a possibility, so worth investigation). For that, you could try giving her a little exercise last thing at night (play some energetic games with her) as that very often stimulates the bowels of dogs. If you can get her to poop more at 11pm, she may not need to poop again at 2am (she'll probably still need to pee though, so the potty stop is still required).

[carmiesmommy]

I did exactly what fran did and it worked like a charm. I would definitely keep the crate in the bedroom so you can hear her when she whines and needs to go out. You will have several weeks of sleepless nights, but it is well worth it ! :rolleyes:

[piper's~mom]

:) I'm going to try setting the alarm tonight.

Piper went 4 times last night!

We had a peepee session at 0130 and again at 0230. I figured there is no way he has to go again, but didn't want to take the chance. He did have to pee again, but it was only a tiny dribble.

Is it possible he's doing that because he'd rather be out of the crate and in my arms?

I take him into bed when we do his morning pee at 0530 and we sleep together until its time to get up. He really LOVES this time (but not as much as me appicon , it's so wonderful when he cuddles up to me)

So I am going to try the alarm idea and try to get him on a pee schedule. Fran I used your "baby bladder" calculator (thanks so much for that info) and did the mental calc that he can't possibly have to go again an hour later... but I took him anyway to make sure.

I don't want to raise a spoiled little terror, so do you think I should have waited until 0430 to take him out again, even though he was crying at 0230?

[gmacleod]

Well, if you want to play it safe and still avoid responding to crying, then set two alarms ;) As he gets bigger, you can push the timings of the potty stops back until first one, then the other, is eliminated. That way, you can be pretty sure you're providing adequately for his needs and can be fairly safe in ignoring any crying.

[Angel1022]

Hi! I've read all the posts about when to take your pup out and am dealing with Bug who doesn't care if he goes in his kennel. He is almost 8 months old and does his business when I take him out but I went home at noon today and there he had pooped, it was all over the place and him! I had to give him a bath before I came back to work. It was terrible! My husband is usually home but he has been out of town the last 4 days. Bug also use to eat his poop which was disgusting and I believe we've broken him of that but the going potty in his kennel has to stop. The kennel is one we had for our other dog so it's bigger, could that be the problem, too much room?? Thanks for any help/suggestions. Sallie

[gmacleod]

Yes, too much room could be the problem. The point of a crate in housetraining is to provide a powerful incentive to the pup not to pee/poop unless he absolutely has to. If he's got enough room to pee in one end and sit in the other, then the incentive isn't that great. Ditto if he has nice absorbant bedding to soak up the pee.

I would suggest that you limit his space in his crate, so that he has enough room to turn around and to lay comfortable. No more. And also take away any bedding (for the time-being at least). That way, if he does pee/poop in his crate, you can be reasonably sure that he really really had to.

I would note though, that it is worth remembering that the reason the crate provides a powerful incentive not to potty is that the dog has to sit in it if he relieves himself. So the majority of dogs will hold on if they possibly can. It in no way means that the dog doesn't feel the need to relieve himself earlier - he does. It just means that the option of sitting in it is worse than the option of holding on and being uncomfortable. Eventually, of course, he will get so uncomfortable that holding on becomes the greater evil and he'll relieve himself anyway. So the trick is not to leave him long enough that that ever happens. Exactly how long that might be varies from individual to individual, and with age, but the maximum time an adult dog should ever be asked to hold it's bladder is 8 hours.

I don't know how long you're having to leave him right now, but if it's more than 5-6 hours, it may simply be too long for him. If that's the case, looking into a friend/neighbour/family member/hired dog walker to come and let him out to potty and play a bit mid-way through the day would be a very good idea :)

[Angel1022]

Many thanks! Yesterday was the first that Bug was in his crate for 4 hours, it's usually only for a couple of hours at a time as my husband is home during the day. But with him gone, there was nothing else I could do. I had read about putting a box at one end of the crate to make it smaller, will try that. I know there has got to be a solution as I can't imagine Bug likes sitting in a mess. He really does not like the crate and yells something fierce for the first few minutes. He eventually settles down but then starts up again after a while. I know it's wrong but he sleeps with us in bed at night. Sallie

[FrankEinstein]

Amazing! I brought Sugar's crate into our bedroom and put it beside the bed, within an arm's reach so I knew that I would hear her if she cried. But she didn't cry at all. She slept through the night and had the biggest poop I've ever seen from her (isn't it great getting excited about poop?). Bringing the crate into the bedroom made a huge difference for her. I'll do it every night from now on, if it helps her.

Frank

[FrankEinstein]

That poop, by the way, was outside, when I took her out in the morning.

[LinoD]

the above advice is great !!

...i'd also like to add that i really think it helps putting the pup's crate in your bedroom, it really made a big difference for us... i used to keep my little guy out in the living room in his crate in the evenings, but he had a few mistakes in his crate, mostly my fault, because i wasnt able to hear him...but when i moved the crate to our bedroom, 1) he was sleeping a lot longer 2) was able to hold it a lot longer 3) we were able to hear him the second he had to go and 4) i really felt like he was much more comfortable being in the bedroom, smelling us, hearing us sleep and breath ...i think is very comforting to a pup, plus, when ever he did get up in the middle of the night, he would take a look at us in bed and go back to sleep...almost like he would say to him self, " oh look, there still sleeping, i should be too..."

he's just a little pup, being alone at night, in a different environment is very traumatic...bring him to your bedroom at night, you wont regret it...

[piper's~mom]

Well, if you want to play it safe and still avoid responding to crying, then set two alarms ;) As he gets bigger, you can push the timings of the potty stops back until first one, then the other, is eliminated. That way, you can be pretty sure you're providing adequately for his needs and can be fairly safe in ignoring any crying.

It worked!

For the past two nights I've been setting an alarm in 2hr 45min intervals.

Now I know for sure he's crying for a love session, and not because he needs to go.

thanks so much for your advice gmacleod - we're both sleeping better now.

[ginaldo]

So any update on the little guy, are things still going well I hope??

[FrankEinstein]

Sugar is doing better at night. She might wake us up once at around 2 or 3 am to go, but now that her crate is in the bedroom we can hear her. After that, she can sleep for 4 or 5 more hours. This morning we overslept (until 8 am) and when I woke her and brought her to the door, she immediately began peeing on the floor. I corrected her and swiftly brought her outside. So, she's far from housebroken right now, but at least she's not having late-night accidents in her crate. Thanks for all of the advice. I just got my copy of "How to Housebreak Your Dog in 7 Days", so I'll be pouring over that for a while.

Frank