Frenchie with an agressive side!

[npretty]

Hello,

I am new to the Bull Forum, I have a new son, his name is Buddha and he can at times challenge me when I try to tell him no, or move him away from something he wants to eat (rocks, cat feces, etc.) he will growl and go crazy and attack my hand by biting and ripping!!

I say no with a firm voice and hold him down by his shoulders and try to keep him away from my hand but he goes squirmy and will growl and bite.

I am afraid that this behavior will persist and get worse when he gets bigger. Any suggestions on how to curb this behvavior now?

[maks]

wow, i have never heard that with frenchies. where did you get him from? what were the parents like , and issues there . i would ask anyways, not that they would tell you. i would actually go to a dog behaviorist for that one.

[franp]

Unfortuntately there are more around then we would care to think, FBRN has taken a number in over the past 4 years.

Poorly bred; poorly socialized dogs.Dogs in homes that never should have been there. People with Frenchies who had NO idea of what they were buying.
People breeding just ONE litter with NO knowledge of what the hell they are doing.,,.

Aggressive Frenchbulldogs are becoming more common as our breed is becoming more popular.One of the all too common side effects of puppy milling;bybing and bad breeding mixed in with impulse buying.

fran

[Carolyn]

When we brought Ferris into our home we had another male dog....a very old Standard Poodle who was NOT ready to give up his position in the household to this young pup. We had a few fights ensue and it was really frightening because the Standard was really too old to fend for himself. We tried scolding Ferris...and even yelled at him.... only to discover that this was seriously making things worse. Ferris was terrified at being told he was a BAD DOG and I was honestly afraid that Ferris had the potential of becoming a fear biter. He has never bitten anyone but I saw the look in his eyes when he was scolded (total terror) and knew I had to figure out a better way to deal with him. I found myself remembering many posts from Roosje about positive reinforcement in dealing with discipline issues. I immediately switched gears and thank goodness I did. I found I was able to prevent a fight much easier by intervening and telling Ferris what a GOOD boy he was for not trying to make trouble. We give Ferris tons of positive reinforcement and I can now say...he is a much happier boy and wants to please and be told how good he is. Hope this is helpful input.

[miserlou]

I would start by reinforcing my status as the pack leader. I wouldn't do this by grabbing his neck though - IMO this could have quite catastrophic consequences.

A couple things I would try:

Ignore unwanted behavior, praise the positive! If you're in a situation that may "explode", I would rather walk away than confront him. If, e.g., he wants to chew on something forbidden in the living room, rather than risking him attacking me (after all, he's trying to teach YOU manners, as he thinks he's the leader...) I would go to the kitchen and get something yammy from the fridge, call him to me, make him sit down and give him the treat with some calm "good boy!" praise. I would also make him eat half of his daily food straight from my hand. You may also want to eat your meal before he eats his (based on alphas eating first in a wolf pack). At all times be a consistent and calm leader to him (think Gandhi rather than Bush :rolleyes: :p ).

In general I would spend more time ignoring him. Don't pay any attention to him when you return home for some time. And when you acknowledge him, do it on your terms. Ignore him e.g. carrying you toys, not to mention barking at you for attention! Leave the room and so teach him that this kind of behavior doesn't result in anything. Remember that for a dog ALL kind of attention is better than no attention at all! Telling NO! NO! Bad dog! is giving him attention, and that's what he wants.

When you want to pet him (DON'T have him on your lap as it's a very dominant position for a dog) instead of going to him, ask him to come to you. Same thing when it's play time. YOU decide when you play, you choose the toy (you may want to keep his toys, and everything he feels possessive about, out of his reach) and you also decide when the playtime is over. You keep the toy in the end and put it away for next time. If you like, he can have some toys lying about to entertain him when he's alone, but the special toys, the ones you play with him, should be stored away from him. In the end the leader gets to keep the "trophy" (yes, the drooled latex chicken :lol: ).

I would also take away all the privileges he has at home. Such things as his own chair.

And finally, I would go to a dog behaviorist. His behavior is not going to get any better, and you want to do something about it asap.

(Where did all that text come from! And I have so many things to do today... :eek: Love reading about dog behaviorism... :o But as I'm not a behaviorist, please go and talk to someone qualified who can see both you and your dog, and give you the right tools to fix this problem.)

[miserlou]

http://www.bulldogworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906

Some very good advice! :) (and would have saved me from a lot of typing had I read some threads before replying... :rolleyes: )

[franp]

I agree with your above statement 100% fran. I'm saddened to hear this from the OP bc I'm sure it's not what they thought they would get, especially knowing the REAL nature of the breed. This greatly saddens me as well. These are the very reasons why it's so important to do your homework before you get a FB and no one should settle for anything less.

Did you get to see this pup before you purchased him?



Judy

The REAL nature of the breed is NOT a squishy , easy , mushy , little dog. It is a COMPANION dog first and foremost.But it is a dog of STRONG personality.STRONG being the key word.

These are dogs that require constant training, or they will take over. Make NO mistake, And with constant work they are the BEST dogs,

I don't know how old this dog is, but I believe with the proper training (which the members here will talk about ) this dog will become a canine good citizen.

All too often people look at the wonderful puppy faces and do not see (or will not hear ) the strong personality behind that endearing face.

Npretty, it will take time and effort, but you can teach your pup..Good luck and get gloves ;)

[maks]

This was wonderful information. Thank you. I dont have these problems, but it is good to be intelligently informed when it comes to our loved animals, who are part of our family. appicon

[npretty]

Thanks for the advice...

Monday night Buddha decided to challenge my husband with his agressive torting and bite him twice. We put him in his kennel right away and left him there for an hour and he barked and cryed the whole time. When we put him down for the night in his kennel in the kitchen he barked all night and tore apart his kennel. :confused:

Is he damaged? I fear he was mistreated or even abused from where ever he came from. He is not like this all the time, he does have a gentle loving side and we smother him with love and attention and most of time he is a good boy, but does not like to be told what to do!!

HISTORY: He is 14 weeks, I rescued him from a pet store in Calgary, AB after he I noticed how he and his litter mate looked dehydrated and malnourished. I have one and my brother has the other male, who is not problematic. It seems that Buddha is the damaged one. I know that Pet stores can be bad for supporting puppy mills and should not support them, but I could not leave them there. :(

I need help to help him, and will not give up on him. Perhaps a professional trainer will be the answer. I will have a look around. In the mean time this site is helping me alot! THANK YOU ALL!

[Hudson]

I'd be afraid of what this dog will end up like. It is sad to say but some behaviors cannot be overcome with love and tenderness. Especially sad when it is in a breed that can be so sweet.

In previous postings, it was clearly explained why this happens when breeders are irresponsible. Your attempt to rescue this dog is very admirable but you should not take it is a failure if the dog cannot be socialized.

I don't intend to sound cruel or mean but I deeply regretted not putting to sleep our first dog after he bit my wife. My wife was picking up a used tissue off of the floor about 6 feet from the dog, and he ran over and bit her hand without warning. My wife excused it because he was "her baby".

But, when our daughter was 18 months old and she was just walking by the dog about two feet away, he lunged up and bit her face without provocation. He had never attempted anything like that before. It took all my self-control not to kill him on the spot. After taking her to the doctor, I had the dog put down. And I blamed my daughter's pain on Christmas Day (because that was the time of year that this happened) on myself for not being objective enough about this dog.

They are just pets. Do not assume that he appreciates you for saving him from the pet shop; dogs don't think that way. We are the alphas in the home and if the dog is already resorting to biting in an attempt to assert his position, then I have to urge you to truly consider the risks. Believe me, it isn't worth the regrets.

[Carolyn]

I can appreciate everyone's input but I still hold out hope that your pup can be helped...he is so very young and his story breaks my heart. I hope that you can find professional help that works for him. Your pup is in my prayers.

[gmacleod]

Well, this is a 14 week old puppy we're talking about. I most certainly would expect that he can be "helped". Frankly, I would be extremely surprised if this were truely aggression rather than just normal play and lack of understanding of the "rules". Unless I'm missing something here, it doesn't even sound unusual behaviour for a young puppy - I've yet to meet one that wouldn't growl and squirm and try to bite if held down. That is an incredibly threatening thing to do to a pup - and something an adult dog would only *ever* do if it meant to kill. Kind of makes your pup's reaction completely understandable and reasonable when you look at things in that light.

Seems to me that he's being written off as having poor temperament and aggression issues on the basis of very little crime, and a lot of provocation.

Puppies bite. Simple fact of life. And it takes time to teach them about bite inhibition and more gentle ways to play. You're not going to achieve that in five minutes with a baby puppy. 14 week old puppies don't "challenge" you for dominance (they don't even understand the concept of dominance - neither do most humans, of course, but in their case it's not an age-related problem ;)).

I have no idea why people persist in believing that they need to dominate their dogs, or "show them who is boss/alpha" in order to get cooperation. That's just not how things work. Canine leaders do not become so by force - ever. And they don't remain leaders if they bully - nobody likes a bully, be it canine or human. Instead, canine leaders become and remain so by benevolent leadership.

Please don't ever hold your puppy down like that. It will do nasty things to his psyche. Instead you need to learn to start praising/rewarding those behaviours you want to encourage (concentrate on the things he does right, not on punishing him for things he does wrong), and ignoring or removing rewards for the behaviours you don't want to encourage.

I've posted these articles before, but it's an important enough concept to deserve a repeat.

People have a very mistaken idea of the concept of dominance when it comes to dogs. Dominance is not about getting what you want by the use of force - it is about leadership. When you see a dog on it's back in a submissive pose - it is *always* an offered behaviour by the submissive dog, never one that is forced by the more dominant one. A leader will *never* force another dog on his back in the way you're doing - well, not unless he intended to attack and/or kill. So can you imagine what you do to the psyche of your puppy if you force him onto his back and to 'submit'? It's not hard to figure why people who do that to dogs very often end up bitten - it is a fair defence by the dog to a very abusive behaviour by the owner.

Do not fall into the 1940s notion that dog heirarchies are all about which dog can dominate the others. They're not - they're about leadership and hierarchy below that leadership. And leaders do NOT become or remain so by physical force. If you want to be your dog's leader, then lead. Don't use force - ever. That confirms that you are NOT the leader, because leaders don't squabble, subordinates do

Here are a few articles that discuss canine leadership and some common misconceptions:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/hierarchies.htm

And an excerpt from one of them:

:
Unfortunately, the real danger of the alpha-concept of physical dominance lies in its questionable extrapolation to dog training and husbandry. Instead of being educational, many so-called 'training' methods are just downright adversarial if not abusive; the dog is often viewed as our enemy, rather than as our best friend. Many playful, greeting and fearful gestures are misinterpreted as being aggressive, providing the unthinking owner with a convenient excuse to abuse the dog under the guise of 'training'.

For example, snapping, pilo-erection, growling and lip-curling are often misconstrued as signs of dominance, whereas they are, in fact, more usually signs of fear - most probably the direct product of a person pounding on the poor dog. Similarly, owners are advised that urine marking, mounting people, stealing food, jumping-up and prolonged eye contact are all signs of dominance, for which the dog should be punished. Some ill-advised, big blue meanies are confusing issues and trying to take the fun out of dog ownership. In my book:

A dog which marks indoors, needs to be housetrained.
A dog which mounts people, a) needs to be instructed to desist and b) requires social introduction to another suitably inclined furry quadruped.
A dog which steals food, a) is in desperate need of an owner who remembers to put food away and b) requires rapid introduction to my favorite booby-trap.
A dog which jumps-up, needs simply to be taught to sit when greeting people.
A dog which is tricky about eye contact should be taught a) that human eye-contact is no threat, b) to look away, or look at its paws on command, and c) to lovingly gaze in the eyes of its understanding owner.
Certainly, we need to control dogs - but mental control is what is required, not physical domination. Even though an ill-experienced, middle-ranking dog 'handler' might be able to jerk, hang, roll-over, and/or beat a dog into submission, what is the point of winning the battle and losing the war? What possible advantage is there in converting a 'dominant' dog into a fearful one? Both are equally as worthless as companions or working dogs. Furthermore, most physical corrections are well beyond the physical and mental capabilities of all but a few dog owners. And so, why advise novice owners to enter into a physical contest that they are bound to lose? In fact, why abuse the dog at all, when it is possible to achieve the same end using brain instead of brawn? Why try to wade the Atlantic, when one could take the Concorde?

We must prescribe training methods which are effective and lie within the capabilities of the average dog owner, including women, children and the elderly. If we have learned anything at all from studying dog behavior, ... owners must establish control in a developmental context, whilst the dog is still a puppy. Rather than browbeating the dog into submission, it is far easier to convince the dog to join the team, so that it enjoys life living with us, rather than fighting against us.

[franp]

Sorry, but I don't even trust most Behavorists..

We just got a pup into rescue..Sounds very much like this situation.. Pup is about the same age and came from a broker..The pup was biting the family..The "behaviorist" told the family that a 15 week old pup need to be euthenized!!! What a load of crap...

This pup is in the right hands now, being fostered..He is just a very alpha pup from a mill in Eastern Europe.. He was in a home that did not know how to handle him..With the right advice, he might have stayed..

Unfortunately in my experience , most" behaviorists"are self taught people who know NOTHING about Frenchbulldogs...and for the most part are the last straw and ruin what little chance these dogs have to live a wonderful life..

Coming here is the best thing. And shortly the FBRN is going to have a behavior area for people to ask question. appicon of a Frenchie experienced person...

My advice: BE WARY of trainors.... Ask what experience they have with Frenchies...And as GMAcleod says. this is a PUP.. One who was not with his mom long enough to learn how to behave...

This is a GREAT reason why a pup should STAY with the breeder as LONG AS POSSIBLE.. Learning bite inhibition..

By the way, you can contact FBRN for advice or who to go to..

fran

[gmacleod]

Their mom would do the same thing in the pack.

Actually, she wouldn't. Or at least, not without first giving the pup a 'look', then a longer 'look', a hard stare, a lip lift, a lip curl, a soft growl, a louder growl, an air snap, and a muzzle grab *before* finally resorting to a scruff shake. Do you also give the puppy that range of increasing indications that his behaviour is inappropriate *before* resorting to forceful punishment - just like his mother would?

If you're going to try to mimic dog behaviour (which I wouldn't recommend, because we humans are too bad at it), then you need to mimic the full range, not just pick out isolated actions and use them out of their proper context.

[gmacleod]

Mmmm. I have never yet seen a bitch actually resort to a scruff shake. That's because puppies, while they may ignore the first couple of warnings, invariably respond positively to the 8th or 9th (actually usually to the third or fourth) signal they're given that their behaviour is unwanted.

I've never figured out how to mimic a lip lift or curl either - so lacking the ability and subtlety to behave like a dog, I just prefer to behave like a human and rely on training to teach my dogs how to live with humans.

For the OP, another useful excerpt from an article on dog training via positive methods:
Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:

Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are.
The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...
Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals.
Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it.
"Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.
So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?

Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy.
Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own.

In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)...

"I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."

That pretty much sums it up, don't you think?

In looking for a suitable trainer to come and help you train your puppy properly, a good place to find one is www.apdt.com Any trainer listed there should be using positive reinforcement methods ONLY (though it is still wise to check to be sure). Forget about trying to dominate your pup - it won't work (and as you've already noted it isn't working, it is making things worse). Instead, you need to concentrate on teaching him, via positive reward-based training methods, what *is* the right behaviour.

[morriesmom]

When you talk about biting are you talking about breaking the skin? My Morrie has bitten us since we got him, but has never broken the skin. The worst is when we are trying to get his collar on. He squirms and bites our hands. He bites pretty hard but, like I said, he has never broken skin. He doesn't growl or snarl, but it's obvious he is trying to get us to stop something he doesn't like. He's 8 months old and 28 lbs. and could do major damage if he wanted to. Would you consider this agressive behavior that needs to be stopped? And if so, how?

[nichole]

Thanks for ALL of the great info. Bailey & George , well...I should say-George -has had some "meltdown" moments. Playtime seems to start getting out of hand, usually if a toy is involved. I will definitely agree, a firm NO, or physically seperating the two, seem to have an extremely negative affect on George. Holding him still while saying NO...definitely DOES NOT apply to him. He seems to get angry, WILL bite my hand, sulk...even refuse to come to me...refusing to come out from under the table. This firm NO was not working well with potty training either.

So, I started ignoring him when having an "accident", and going completely nuts with praise...dancing and clapping, saying "you pottied, you pottied" when he went to his pad. Unbelievable! In two days, we've had no accidents in the house! All on paper. Even when I find that he's gone and I wasn't in the room (after the fact), I still crawl under the table and clap like a crazy person, saying "Yea! Yea!" I'm actually blown over how much positive praise influences him, and how "I'm angry with you George" makes it worse.

Still undecided on the "aggresive" behavior. Playing gets out of hand... he seems to react...somewhat nasty...if Bailey gets a toy. He will stop what he's doing, and run full speed to yank it out of her mouth. Sometimes tug-o-war ensues, sometimes Bailey lets go and backs up (extremely surprising to me, must be that puppy license I've heard about here) sometimes George goes nuts when she won't let go, and grabs her jowls and bites her. She will yelp, then I intervine, and he gets scolded. I know the difference between their playing(I think), but this is quite different. He also does a large amount of barking at her if she has the toy. Not with front paws down and tush up...but, on all fours pretty aggresively, right in her face. Thank god she is a big sweet boxer girl...she lets him get away with a lot! Any other dog...I don't think things would be the same. I would like to attend a Frenchie outing, possibly with pups...to observe their play time. Puppies are playful and somewhat fearless, but when is too much? If he loses his "license" at 4 months...is Bailey going to try to gain control? I'm confused a little. They seem to go all day without an incident, then WHAM! George seems to get angry?? Also, there is NO food aggression. They will eat carrots on the floor side by side, sniffing one anothers snack, nothing. Bailey will also allow George to climb up into her bowl. She snapped him away the first 2 days, and he would not approach her while eating, treats or anything.I let them work this out. Quite a different exchange now, he will (or did) stand beneath her, trying to take things...she let him. I was shocked ...now I crate him when she is fed. I will go back through the threads and read the links that were posted earlier...any additional input is welcome. Thanks in advance.

Nichole&George :o

[Borgan]

Hi Nichole,

George is testing Bailey's waters to see if he can dominate her (that's toy aggression). Put a stop to it now, because if Bailey starts to fight back and neither back down, it could get bloody. Many Frenchies (including mine) are notorious for their "big dog attitudes". Roosje has some excellent, non-violent techniques to use. Roosje?

-Brooke.

[J20]

:( Firstly just like to say thinking of every one who has been effected by the flooding. Our thoughts are with you all at this terrible time and i hope every one who is effected by it is safe and well. Much love and best wishes from the UK :)


My frenchie is 7 months now, and for the first time he jumped on the sofa and as my son went to move him he snapped at him. My son (14) shouted at him and i pushed him off the sofa. He is very good with people and kids and other dogs, but i have noticed that every time he meets a dog he always has all the fur on his back standing up. It looks aggressive and other dog owners always ask me if he is ok. He has only ever been barked at by another dog but never any thing nasty by another dog...any ideas why he does this. He got on well at puppy classes and loved rolling around the floor playing with other dogs :confused:

[miserlou]

Yes, hair standing up doesn't mean aggression but rather excitement/uncertainty about a situation.

Too bad most of the people don't know this. A stray dog, that I know to be a very scared but sweet girl, was raising her hair up when she met Elsi (this happened just the other day) and also raising her lip a bit to warn Elsi off. I wasn't worried (well, a little bit... Elsi's my little baby after all). Then a man next to me says to a girl, who was playing with this stray dog before Elsi ran there, to slap the dog for growling at Elsi! :eek: Well, the second she slaps the dog, the dog "attacks" Elsi. (Elsi's fine, not a scratch on her.)

Now this dog has associated Elsi with her friend (this girl who slapped her) getting mad at her... I'll have to try and fix this, as we meet this dog every day. It all happened SO fast - I didn't have time to stop her from doing this. These people were trying to protect my puppy, but instead got her bitten... :( I always handle meeting new dogs with a lot of "good doggies, good girl, look how good she is..awww" :D kind of baby talk, and this works better than anything else. Sometimes I can feel my knees shaking (being terriefied that this strange big dog is going to eat Elsi) but I don't let the dogs see/sense my fear. This usually relaxes them and there are no problems arising. I don't, of course, let my dogs meet with ALL the dogs we see! No amount of baby talk will get some female dogs that I know to be aggressive, to like my two.

[nichole]

what I did when Mo did this with Dot, I did exactly the same to her as soon as she did it, you will see that it will work wonders :D

Roosje[/QUOTE]

You mean grab Mo by the jowl??? Maybe I misunderstood...I do understand that scolding him affects the situation negatively...ignoring him seems to do the trick. I've also started removing the toy when this happens, or distracting (them) with something else. I also stopped babying Bailey in front of him after this happens. Thanks Roosje
Nichole

[nichole]

Thanks Roosje. Bailey has been taking control, mostly because I've stepped back and allowed her to. The strip of hair along her spine rarely comes up now, and when she bears her teeth...I do nothing. I realize this is not a sign of her thinking of eating him! George seems to respond in various ways...he has quite the ego. He will back up and sit off to the side, or pretend to be interested in something new. But when it's time to sleep, he will go and lay beside her.

For having grown up with dogs, it's surprising how much I didn't know. We rarely had 2 at once...although my 2 female boxers had their ups and downs, but generally got along great. Only time a problem arose happened to be for my attention. Left alone they were fine.

Bailey and George are a little different...I'm learning every day. I want George to be well adjusted before I terrorize a playgroup!