BARFing Frenchies?

[miserlou]

Many of you seem to be feeding raw, but is there anyone here feeding your dog BARF? Giving raw bones to your Frenchie? Not just to chew on but to eat.

I give raw bones, mainly chicken wings and legs, and also ribs to my Amstaff without any problems. But my Frenchie... she inhales all her food! And not much, if any, chewing involved!

I would like to put her completely on raw diet, but how can I feed her the bones? We just asked our butcher if they can grind us chicken wing, backs etc. but no, they can't.

What can I do? I'm too scared to give her e.g. a chicken wing as most likely she would try to swallow it whole... :confused:

[franp]

Good morning

I do give Dari wings and backs.And the first time,believe me I was PETRIFIED..
She was fine..

We started with chicken necks cut in thirds.. As a treat. Chicken necks are soft and Dari was fine . Then I got wings (now, I froze and defrosted everything before I gave it to her. I have been told that it kills any germs; or allot of germs. She has NEVER gotten sick.)
With the wings; they get cut into three pieces.Takes her a couple of minutes to eat them.

As I understand it, the weight bearing bones need to be ground, cause they are too hard. And the backs are too fatty to just eat, so they should be mixed.

We have not yet tried turkey necks.. Just way toooo BIG!..Though I am sure that Dari could/would handle it and love it.

Chewing on the bones is good for thier teeth and they love them.

[gmacleod]

I feed a raw diet that is bones and all. IMO it is very much better for them than ground bone. There is no dental chew yet invented that will actually keep teeth properly clean, the way that chewing through raw bones will. So if you don't feed raw bones, then you need to brush your dog's teeth.

You just need to teach your dog to chew, is all. A frenchie will have no problem at all in chewing through bones - they've got a pretty powerful jaw there.

Start with something that is reasonably large. Ideally larger than your dog's head, but alternatively something that you can hold onto the other end of. If you're holding onto the other end, he can't swallow it whole and has to chew. In time, he will learn to chew his food ;)

With all that said, dogs still don't do all that much chewing on smallish things. A chicken wing, for example, is only ever going to get one or two crunches before being swallowed. Your dog will still digest it just fine. And if it was too big, it will be regurgitated and re-eaten. That's natural (doesn't happen that often though - dogs who regurgitate usually learn to chew LOL).

If the whole thing bothers you too much though, and you're prepared to brush your dog's teeth, then you could always buy a grinder and just grind things up yourself.

[miserlou]

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. :)

I will try both of the methods you described - try giving small pieces as well as teach her to chew by holding onto the other end.

And in addition I will send my other dog into another room, so that ever so greedy Elsi wouldn't feel the need to compete... I bet she'd try and swallow a whole chicken rather than share it with Iida! :rolleyes: :)

[Solo_dog]

Isn't it true that raw bones are okay? I know that cooked bones can splinter and cause all sorts of problems, but raw bones, even chicken, are different.

[frenchiesmom]

I am not sure about this either. I have always been told also not to feed chiken bones, however it was always the cooked ones which they were talking about, not the raw. I would be really hesitate to feed any kind of chicken bone, raw or otherwise, but supposedly the raw small chicken bones such as the neck and wings are soft, and do not splinter as they do when cooked. I have done a lot of research on both the raw and commercial diet. I know the raw is probably very good.

But I just chose not to use it. I just am not comfortable with it. I guess my thought is that my dogs have always done really well on a high quality kibble. They are very healthy, shiny coats and in excellent physical condition, with no health problems at all. Guess it is just a little like the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" I have nothing aginst raw feeding, and know that many on here have had great results with it, which is great. But it is just not my personal preference.

frenchiesmom

[frenchiesmom]

I have to agree Judy. I know I personally would not be willing to risk it. But as you say, that is just my opinion. Having worked with a vet in the past, I have seen to many incidences involving chicken bones from people who didn't know any better. I just can't help but feel they are an un necesary risk.

frenchiesmom

[franp]

Everyone must do what they feel comfortable with.

COOKED bones of any kind are very dangerous.. RAW bones are what I use. Dari loves them.And many people I know have fed raw chicken necks; wings and backs for years without incident.Infact one breeder I know, even posted a picture of her 5 week old pups chewing on a chicken neck..

Dari never liked Nylabones of anykind. or kongs. She loves marrow bones and her raw bones..

[frenchiesmom]

You are right franp, in that everyone needs to do what they feel most comfortable with. Discussions like this are good. This way everyone hears the pro's and cons of both, which is as it should be. Then they personally can decide what they feel is best for their baby, but this is how we learn. This is why this is such a good forum.

frenchiesmom

[gmacleod]

Mmmm - hearing about others' horror stories is one of the things that keeps me away from kibble. Heard of too many dogs that have choked on it eating too fast. I do recognise though, that that is a pretty small minority, and those sorts of freak accidents can happen with any sort of food at all.

Having fed raw food, bones and all, for 30 years without incident though, I'm pretty confident about doing it. After all, dogs have been eating exactly that for the last 20 million years or so. It is only really in the last century that people have stopped feeding those things to their dogs (since they became house pets, in fact, and the commercial dog food industry was invented). None of my animals has ever choked, gotten sick, had an impaction, a perforation or any other incident of any kind. In fact, I've never yet heard first-hand of any dog that did either. Only ever anonymous stories... ;)

And, of course, I've been fortunate enough to encounter quite a number of vets over the years who not only support raw feeding (bones included), but actively promote it :)

All in all, I'm very comfortable with feeding raw bones to a dog. It's exactly what nature has designed them to consume, and 100 years of commercial pet foods is infantisimal in evolutionary terms. What I'm far more wary of is the various items the pet industry has invented for dogs to chew on instead.

[miserlou]

Update on Elsi and BARF. :)

In the end I chose to try a kind of "half BARFing" for both Elsi and Iida. I wanted to keep the grains in their diet, as even though they are not beneficial or even suitable for all dogs, every dog is different and many dogs CAN benefit from having them included in their diet. Also (heard from someone whose dogs have been BARFing for the past 20 years or so) not everything that may not be necessary (grains for dogs), make it harmful either.

They eat raw meat in the mornings (mostly wings, once or twice per week instead of raw they get plain yogurt with fruits) and I give them some raw vegetables or fruit, e.g. this morning they got a banana in half + some nectarine slices.

The second meal of the day is home cooked alternating rice/oatmeal/dark pasta/lentils/beans/cooked potatoes mixed with fish/liver/chicken stomachs or hearts/mince etc. (mince=burger (I think) in America) and sometimes vegetables - the meats and vegetables are very lightly cooked in the second meal. Attention GWYNETH! :D - I've been cooking the meat very lightly to avoid the dogs having to digest raw together with cooked grains. Would it be ok to mix them in one meal?

The oils I add: extra virgin olive oil OR fish oil OR extra virgin sesame oil OR few times I have added real butter

Vitamins: I add some vitamin C most of the days and once or twice per week a multivitamin meant for dogs

Other: garlic couple of times per week, raw egg 1-2 times per week

The basis of this diet I'm trying on them is to feed them as natural (=non processed), good quality and healthy food as possible. Meat is from a butchery or I get it frozen from the supermarket. I keep 12 hours between their meals. They may get some healthy snacks between them. I'm also keeping a food diary, writing down their every meal. I'm trying to make sure they get everything they need, not in one meal, but in the long run.

Elsi is doing great with the bones. Sure, some bones get regurgitated and re-eaten, but in general we haven't had any problems. They both LOVE their food, and even Iida, who was always a very picky eater, now waits in the kitchen for her meals! She hasn't left not one grain of rice during these weeks! Before she would hardly ever finish her meal, just ate enough not to starve. She would also always leave the kitchen when she heard me scooping the kibble in her bowl... that's how much she disliked her food. :( Wings she ADORES!

Dry food will never again be fed in our house. I may want to put them on 100% BARF someday, but as long as they are doing great with this diet, I don't see the need to do it. I keep reading more and keep talking with people, and then decide whether the grains are just something I need, not the dogs.

[Snowblind]

Porthos is eating more or less BARF too now. HE lives it! Though to my surprise he has not inhaled any of the stuff I give him. Exept for the chicken wing tips but those are soft and small enough not to make trouble. And I sometimes give a half pigs head that he wrestles the whole day with. It is nearly as big as he is so no worries about him swallowing it in whole :P He loves his new diet and so does Khris. She is still eating mostly kibble but gets the stuff Porthos can´t eat (well she still has bigger jaws at the moment). Generally speaking I think I have to go vegetarian to balance the massacre in our fridge but dogs love it so how can I deny it to them :rolleyes:

[gmacleod]

Update on Elsi and BARF. :)
In the end I chose to try a kind of "half BARFing" for both Elsi and Iida. I wanted to keep the grains in their diet, as even though they are not beneficial or even suitable for all dogs, every dog is different and many dogs CAN benefit from having them included in their diet. Also (heard from someone whose dogs have been BARFing for the past 20 years or so) not everything that may not be necessary (grains for dogs), make it harmful either.
Totally agree :) Sensible friend you have there. Feeding raw is not some sort of regimented science, it's a flexible diet that allows you to find what works for your particular dog. I'd say that grains in dog food have caused a lot of problems for a lot of dogs for a very long time - but that's partly the result of the low quality floor sweepings that make their way into dog food. If you want to feed some high-quality grain, and your dog does well on that (and some do), then by all means do it.

Even if they're not necessary, it doesn't necessarily mean harmful. Many people don't believe fruit/vegetables are necessary either - and don't feed them. That doesn't mean that the people who do are going to kill their dogs with carrots LOL.

As long as your dogs are doing well, and don't show any symptoms of allergies, then I don't think you've got anything to worry about there.

The second meal of the day is home cooked alternating rice/oatmeal/dark pasta/lentils/beans/cooked potatoes mixed with fish/liver/chicken stomachs or hearts/mince etc. (mince=burger (I think) in America) and sometimes vegetables - the meats and vegetables are very lightly cooked in the second meal. Attention GWYNETH! :D - I've been cooking the meat very lightly to avoid the dogs having to digest raw together with cooked grains. Would it be ok to mix them in one meal?
Yes, I think it's fine. While I understand the reasoning behind not mixing kibble and raw, I haven't actually heard of a dog that did get sick from it. Still, no point in taking unneccessary risks.

In your case here though, I would expect cooked oatmeal, rice or pasta to be much more digestible than kibble anyway. So the issue doesn't arise to the same extent in the first place. Lightly cooking various meats to mix with the cooked rice should therefore be just fine. And there are *plenty* of people who homecook for their dogs in a very similar fashion to that you're describing :)

[miserlou]

^Thank you so much! I now feel like appicon - it would seem as if I'm doing OK with the diet planning!

I have to say, that every day I watch them eat (hoover really) their meals, and I feel SO happy!! For a long time now I have been feeling so guilty for feeding them kibble... (although I have been always adding meat and vegetables in their meals, and Iida also got wings every now and then)

Both seem healthy and happy. :) Guess I can keep on feeding them this way! appicon